Amp Comparison Opinions

[Pantoufle]

Hi there,

I am about to start my gigging life as a piano player and so looking to invest in a method to produce sound from my red monster.

I've done a lot of reading on various systems and have narrowed it down to three or four solutions and I was wondering if anyone had any experience with any of them (preferably more than one so that they can tell me differences between them).

I only play my Nord Piano 2 and 97% of the time will be using a piano sound (the Bosie XL or the Fazioli XL. I love those sounds.) I play jazz gigs exclusively. I don't sing - so no mid needed (though it would be nice, I guess) I will be playing gigs that will be between 30-50 people and others that will be between 200-300 people.

The three (possibly four) solutions I've settled on:

1) A pair of QSC K10's on stands (with a mixer, I guess? Can't I just run the R/L outputs to the respective speakers?)
2) A Motion Sound KP-500SN (or, possibly, CROMAcord MXVS that a nord player here has brought to attention... although it's a bit awkward to get this because you'd have to straight out buy it to even hear it.)
3) A pair of BOSE L1 Compact's (Holy hell that'll be expensive, you might say! But I've found a great refurb deal on them 1400 for the pair.)
(4) A pair of AER amps, maybe 2 Compact 60-3. (Again, expensive, but I'm really looking for sound quality and longevity. Purchase expensive once, and then don't worry bout it again.)

My concerns on each:
-THe QSC K10's: lots of extra stuff to schlepp. I don't own a car so I will be relying on others for transportation.
-MS KP500SN: I've heard that acoustic pianos aren't as nice on them.
-Bose L1 compact - I've heard that they are sorely lacking bottom end and highs. I feel like that would really be required for proper reproduction of a nice piano sound.
-AER's - My dad has an AER Compact 60-2. Sounds good so I don't really see a downside - except that he's worried that a keyboard would blow the amp and I'm not sure if this is a legitimate worry. At worst, I'd run a pad, or an EP (the Sparkletop is gorgeous) through it. Nothing really crazier.

SO anyone have any experience with these that they can compare them with each other.

Thanks!

[rb4u1]

I have had several motion sound amps and they're not very kind to piano reproduction.
I have two QSC K tens and recommend them pretty highly. They are very portable and easy to schlep around, thanks to their great ergonomics. All you need is a power cord. I would recommend the bag as the speaker gets scuffed up to easily.
A sax player buddy of mine has several of the Bose set ups.
The better one has a blown mid speaker. Although they might sound nice, It seems like a lot of stuff to carry around what with the bag and cables and base and bass amp module.
I don't know anything about the AER speakers.
Good luck I'm sure you'll enjoy what you wind up with.

[Hambone]

I'm absolutely loving my new http://www.fbt.it/ENG/PAE/PRODOTTI/SPEAKERS/ProMaxX/ FBT ProMaxX speakers so far. I would venture to say that they're a good step up from the QSC's in sound quality and musicality. And power and expense. I believe even the largest of their lineup are lighter too. They did take forever to receive on order though!

[zzAARzz]

ProMaxX 12a
600W RMS + 300W RMS 133dB SPL Processed Active Speaker
Extremely light, only 15 kg (33,1 lb)
Best for you!

[zzAARzz]

This one more compact: http://www.fbt.it/ENG/PAE/PRODOTTI/Stag ... /index.asp

[Pantoufle]

@ Hambone & zzAARzz: Hey guys and thanks for replying. I am looking specifically for info about the four options I've listed. After a good two weeks of research on how to amplify my girl, I've settled on those four as the ones that are most recommended by the majority.

I have a feeling that the two AER's would be the best sounding option because of just how incredible their reproduction for acoustic sounds is. My thinking, at the moment is AER > 2 QSC K10 / 2 Bose L1 Compacts > Motion Sound KP-500SN. Again, I'm looking for mostly acoustic piano sound reproduction and, while everyone praises the Motion Sound, I frequently hear that it's great in all respects... but a little lacking in the acoustic side. I'm quite curious as to the match-up between the Bose L1 Compact and QSC K10's. Realistically, the Compacts wouldn't be that much easier to schlepp around than the QSC K10's... aside from the fact that they pack neater whereas the stands wouldn't be as easy to carry around. I would have to use a mixer for both of those setups. I'd probably go with something like Allen & Heath ZED10 as they have great sounding preamps.

I'm not sure if I could go strait into the AER's with the R/L outputs form the keyboard. Maybe I could do the same thing for the QSC's and the Bose? But the general consensus seems to be to throw a mixer in the.... mix.

[cphollis]

I have no input on the AERs -- never came across them.

I have a pair each of the QSC K8s, K10s and K12s, so I can compare and contrast them. If you are worried about space, the K8s are pretty darn close to the K10s in sound, although you can't easily lay them on the floor as monitors. The K10s and K12s do great triple duty: monitor, keyboard amp, or occasionally FOH when needed. If you play in crappy bars like I do, very often your rig will be better than the house PA

For you speaker-size snobs, the K8s are really worth a listen -- surprisingly effective in a hard-to-beat package. When I show up to play with a new group, and they see a single small K8, they often josh "is that all you brought?". Until the guitar player asks me to turn down a bit

When I'm feeling lazy, I simply run the right channels of my two boards to the right QSC, and the left channels to the left QSC. No mixer required, great stereo sound if you can get some separation between the two units, although you can't get full volume due to modest line levels from the Nords. If it's a bigger gig, I bring a small mixer along for better control, improved line levels, let the horn player play through it, etc. Any QSC puts out a fearful level of clean, accurate volume when fed a suitable line level. The mixer also lets me create a personal monitor mix through my floor monitor -- I get to hear the band, as well as myself.

If it's a really small gig, I only bring a single QSC K8, and run mono from both boards into the back. The primary practical difference between the units is dispersion: the K8 has a very wide angle but short "throw", and the K12 is the opposite. If I'm part of a louder electric band, I bring a pair of K10s: one for the audience, and one as a floor monitor so I can hear myself when it gets loud For the really big gigs, it's a pair of K12s, and a K10 as a personal monitor. I didn't get the totes/covers at the outset; now I wish I did. They scuff easily.

I own the Motion Sound KBR -- the one with the leslie on top. It's gathering dust now -- I think the QSCs are much better for just about everything, and the onboard leslie sim in the newer Nord units make the KBR approach obsolete. The smaller QSCs are much easier to lug around. The stands are not a hassle at all -- they fit almost anywhere in the car.

I also own the Bose L1 Model II (not the compact). Nice for low-level acoustic gigs, wonderful dispersion, but easily drowned out when the volumes start to go up. If I was still doing my solo act, I'd be using it more. Also, lots of pieces to that rig, assembly required. It too is starting to gather dust.

I have had no quality issues with any of the above products.

It's your call, but with the QSCs, I couldn't be happier. That is, until something better comes out

[Pantoufle]

Wow cphollis. Thanks very very much for that really great rundown. I'm actually bookmarking this post because of how great it is. Being new to gigging, there's a ton of useful info there. QUick question: how small is a small gig? Would 2 K8's work for a jazz quartet (guitar, bass, drums) for an audience of, say, 300?

I actually had a chance to try two Bose L1 Compacts today. Through them I ran a Nord Stage EX routed through a mackie mixer that the store had on hand. Spend a good hour and a bit diddling around on it, changing the EQ and generally being my inquisitive self. I really liked the system. Very clear sound, nice crisp mids. But, unfortunately, I felt a distinct lack of bass in the lower register of the piano. And then highs sounded... sort of tinny. I'm quite discerning about my piano sounds so this is entirely a subjective matter for me - you don't even want to know how long I spend searching for my grand piano or a keyboard. After the first half-hour of playing on it (Bosie L patch - I use the XL at home but I figured they were close enough), I was definitely very impressed by the engineered BOSE sound... but I had this odd feeling in the back of my mind, nagging me, that it wasn't really really appropriate for what I was looking for in a piano sound. It was almost fatiguing to listen to it. I'm not really one to jump on a "hate this" or "love that" bandwagon, so, to be fair, I A/Bed that system with a pair of QSC K8's that the store had available.

My impressions: QSC K8's won hand down for me.... in three separate blind tests I did. I want to send a silent thanks to the great guy helping me and putting up with me today: thanks, sir!! I had him set up the speakers right beside each other and ran them through the same mixer so received the same signal. I closed my eyes and he would play something on one and then the other and I would stand in front of them, listening and merely naming my preference. I also had him play the Yamaha patch and the Queen upright patch that were loaded on that board. I also listened to a few EPs. Each time, I picked the QSC K8's over the BOSE. I find that they are a bit more clear in the total representation of sound coming from the Nord. I thought that was really the fairest test I could do with the two systems. I really warmed up to the QSC sound more I guess because it seemed more viscerally real. I don't know what that means but that was my gut reaction to each sound I heard.

So, at this point, I think that the Motion Sound is out - many people say that, realistically, it's a great great stereo keyboard amp for keyboard sounds... but it's a bit weak at acoustic piano reproduction. Also, I wouldn't buy something I couldn't try beforehand so..... Motion Sound... yeeeeeeeeeeer outtaheeere!

The A/B test today confirmed the Bose is out for me - maybe if I had the money to buy a L1 Model II with B2 I would get much better sound... but that's 2.5K and out of my budget before I even began to think about stereo. All that's left to try and A/B is the AER. I'm not sure if I can find a place that has two AER's readily available to try so I might have to A/B with just one vs. just one QSC K10. My dad will be bringing his AER over this weekend and I'll run a few sounds through it just to hear what it's like on its own. I think the difficulty the QSC will have is getting that beautiful acoustic sound over the AER (as AER is specifically designed for that) but I'm keeping an open mind... and more importantly, open ears.

So I'm left with one of two options:
-A pair of QSC K10's (or K8s) with a mixer (and stand, I guess. Can't I just sit them on the floor behind me?)
-A pair of AER Compact 60-3's (that I'll just sit behind me).

If anyone has any opinions about these two options that has tried them both, I would GREATLY value your input.

Thanks everyone for putting up with me.

[cphollis]

Glad you found my comments useful. Sorry, no knowledge of the AERs. But a few more thoughts ...

I believe any keyboard amp needs a stand to get it off the floor, otherwise you're playing to your ankles or perhaps your backside. I think you've got an unfair perspective of the telescoping stands used with self-powered speakers -- they're really not much bother at all, and it gives you great flexibility in placing your amps. Less than a minute or two to set up each one: set up stand, loft the K8 or K10, attach power, etc. Much simpler than the pair of Boses you were considering.

As far as volume goes, that's subjective: how loud does everyone else play, are you the central focus of the room, or is the band just nice window-dressing? A pair of K8/K10 QSCs can easily handle keyboards 300+ people in the room without a PA, unless you're in a very electric band. To get a nice stereo spread, I put one behind me, and one on the other side of the group. Pan, leslie, chorus -- all nice.

The QSCs (and the Nord) are raw and unfiltered -- they provide as little coloration as possible. To get a "sound", you have to add components to adjust things. I think this is preferable to getting a sound "baked in" with your amp. One popular addition is a passive DI unit which warms up the piano tone and makes it less brittle and more round. And then you have the usual effects, most of which can be dialed in directly from the Nord: amp models, compression, EQ, etc. I find that it's not too hard to come up with a pleasing sound, depending on what I'm playing.

The final consideration -- maybe you're playing in a small jazz quartet now, but what will the future bring? I play in a number of different settings: hard rock, roots/americana, gospel, pop, blues, etc. -- and I need equipment that can work well in any setting. No jazz -- yet!

Best of luck with your choices -- I'm sure it will all work out just fine!

[hitektodd]

It's your call, but with the QSCs, I couldn't be happier. That is, until something better comes out

Too funny! This has just happened to me. I think there is something better.

I own both the K10 and the new Ev ZLX12p. I've tried the K8 K10 and K12 and a handful of generic keyboard amps.
I gigged with the K10s for about a year and it really did a good job and I was very happy with the sound. Until I heard the EV ZLXp.
My preference is easily the Ev ZLX12p over the K10 (and K12 for that matter). When A-B'd the two speakers with my nord stage 2 and korg kronos I found that the EV's sounded clearer (more detail) and less harsh in the high frequencies. Less harsh to me means that I can push the sound a bit louder in a band without killing people. The low mids are much more defined. If I play a dark rhodes preset with a really muddy (low on the piano) chord voicing the EV provides much more definition to each note and the K10s create a big muddy mess. (I realize I am comparing a 10" speaker and a 12" speaker) Organ percussion really sings through the EVs in a beautiful way. Left hand organ bass lines sound killing.
Pianos sound outstanding on both Nord and Kronos.
There is a 2" difference, but the K10 sounds like a small speaker in comparison the the ZLX12p.
The real deal breaker for me was the eq options on the EV ZLX series. I have mine set to "music mode" with -3db on the bass and +3db on the treble for a bit of shimmer to cut in the mix. These options aren't available on the K10 and I had to run my keyboards through some kind of EQ. The EVs are plenty loud enough with tons of head room as a keyboard amp.
The QSCs are astonishingly quiet, very little hiss at high volumes. The EVs have a noticeable hiss at high volumes. The -10db output off the keyboard means that the speaker has to be set higher. I'm sure a preamp or mabye running into the mic input would fix this. (haven't tried it yet because the hiss doesn't bother me that much)
Size-wise EVs take up a larger footprint on stage and in the car than the K10s. But they are about the same weight (EVs might be slightly heavier). The K10s are more convenient to carry with its centre handle on the top. I would also say the QSC K10 construction looks much more robust and road worthy than the EV ZLX12p. Plus QSC has a good track record for making quality stuff with a great warranty. Only time will tell.

Hope that helps.