I'm Thinking About Giving Up on Nord

[lawman]

I love Nord acoustic piano sounds through headphones, online and in videos. Otherwise, I like them much less.
My performing days are past, and since I’ve retired from my day job I have a lot more time to work with my Steinway B and my electronic rig, including EP. Without going into my electronic history, suffice it to say that I now have a Nord Grand and am awaiting delivery of a Stage 4 Compact. (I use a VPC1 as a controller for AP sounds, and the keybed of the NS4C will be sufficient for organ and synth).
However, try as I might, I just can’t get happy with the Nord AP sounds. It’s not for lack of good amplification - I’ve been using TT08-A’s for a while now and just received a pair of Focal Trio6 Be’s (which, although technically classified as “nearfield monitors,” are nevertheless recommended by Focal out to a distance of 10’, which suits my speaker-to-ear situation just fine). The rest of my signal chain is also not shabby: a JMK Audio preamp/DI, a Speck X.Sum mixer and Mogami cables all-around.
My 16’ X 11’ studio is only halfway-treated with good acoustic paneling, but even when I move my speakers to within 3’ of my ears, the sound is not greatly improved.
I realize that “powered speakers will never sound as good as headphones,” but jeez, I thought that this rig would come a lot closer than it does. My AP’s sound far more harsh, grating and downright unnatural than I expected. Adjusting the NG's EQ, timbre, and other settings does not eliminate that basic problem.
I’ve read that Nords sound as wonderful as they do online and in videos as a result of having the benefit of an array of fancy devices in the signal chain. I’m willing to spend a little more if it will bring satisfactory improvement, but can anyone please tell me just what those additional fancy devices could be? I’ve got to admit, at this point I’m more than a little underwhelmed, given the cost.
I know that I can get superior sound with a VST setup, but I simply don’t want to fool with a computer, plus I enjoy the easy functionality of all of the knobs and switches on a slab keyboard. I also realize that headphones make a vast difference, but I don't want to be always tethered to them.
As much as I want to enjoy my Nord, I’m beginning to think that I may have to get a Yamaha.
I would much prefer to stay with Nord but, again, can anyone tell me how I can get happy here? (No snark, please.)

[MarkJames]

I always looked at Nord more for stage use and cutting through the mix than having the “best” piano, organ, synth, etc.

Since you’re not gigging, I could see a Montage fitting better if you wanted everything on the synth. But I’d recommend not avoiding VSTs either. Also, before throwing out the Nords I’d try something else in your studio environment to make sure it’s the keyboard and not your environment that needs work.

[cphollis]

Hi, I am a "piano sound" geek, if that helps? For my ears, there's right, and there's -- well -- not quite right. Right?

The apex experience is either (a) expensive sound system in the perfect listening environment, or (b) nice headphones. Everything else will be a compromise in one direction or another. At some point, you reach an acceptable level and you go work on something else instead.

"My AP’s sound far more harsh, grating and downright unnatural than I expected. Adjusting the NG's EQ, timbre, and other settings does not eliminate that basic problem."

Your physical signal chain is more than adequate, so I wouldn't spend any more there. By comparison, I use no-name XLR cables to a budget DI and a mainstream digital mixer. Sounds super-pristine to my ears!

As far as "devices in the chain", I use a collection of software on the digital mixer that creates a "channel strip". You could also run through a laptop or iPad, or buy a bunch of expensive boxes with knobs and wires.

Also, you may be a candidate for the more expensive software pianos. They are really quite lovely and detailed, and can of course can be played from your Nord.

Here is what I am doing, with great results:
-- NS3C to four-channel powered DI (Behringer, $100-ish) <- having hot levels helps a bit
-- DI to X32 rack
-- input gain staging moderate
-- no compression until about -10dB, and then a 1.5+ ratio, hard limiter at -2dB , does a lot to tame clanging and harshnesss
-- EQ dip around ~400Hz where it starts to get muddy, maybe a little extra EQ north of 8kHz
-- A light multpressor to even out highs and lows as I move around [also helps with clanging and harshness]

That might sound like a lot, but it really isn't -- just a few FX that you set up on the mixer, and it's all good.

Otherwise, I'm using what's on the Nord (reverb, chorus, etc. as needed). I do find the Nord FX are quite good. There is only so much you can do with them, though, but it's more than adequate except for that last 10%, which you want in certain environments.

The "final step" is the interface between your output stage and your ears: speakers, monitors, headphones, IEMs, etc. You said you had a sound-treated 16x11 room? I would be very tempted to put small monitors in each corner, and play somewhat in the center. Otherwise, you're getting directional sound vs. immersive sound.

You may find you like the sound better with less treatment. If it sounds too dry, that's why! A little natural reverb really helps with the perception of immersion.

As far as speaker type, you're looking for something between a near-field monitor (too short) and PA speakers (too much throw). I own those RCF TT08as, they're pretty good for that use case. Also, I suggest that people go take a look at what Nord does with mounting monitors for solo piano playing, and see if that sparks any ideas. The monitors themselves aren't bad, either!

Best of luck in your quest!

[maurus]

Hi Lawman,

Just why are you using your electronic setup and not just your Steinway?

I am asking since, obviously, you will never get fully close to your Steinway B. So I am sure you are using your electronic rig (with AP sounds) for some particular purpose, and, in your case, indeed a purpose beyond silent practicing with headphones, or emulating a Rhodes, a Hammond or such. Care to elaborate? Then some here might give more helpful advice.

In the end a Yamaha might be equally disappointing - depending on your aims and purposes.

[ajstan]

Wow, those are some large, expensive monitors. What type of experience are you trying to achieve? I'm sure that others with greater knowledge of audio theory would be able to give you a better response, but I would think that the Focal monitors would be better suited for creating a soundstage of multiple instruments at different depths and L/R panning where the instruments are perceived to be 10'-20' away, not the intimate experience of playing a live AP.

Assuming that you are looking for an experience that sounds like you are sitting in front of a real AP, it seems counterintuitive to think that (without some kind of acoustical trickery) any type of speaker set much more than two feet away would sound natural, since the sound and hammers of a real AP are closer to you than that.

I have my NS3s running through a Key Largo mixer to a pair of JBL 305p MKII monitors that are set at ear level less than two feet away over the rear corners of my HA88, aimed at my ears. If I set the volume to AP levels with a little reverb and close my eyes (no EQ applied), I can visualize a real piano immediately in front of me and pinpoint the string being hit by the hammer depending upon which note is hit. Do I get the visceral experience of the vibrations of a real piano? No, but the experience is close enough.

If you're looking for a big, mic'd and amplified piano sound, then that would be a function of your speaker placement, room treatment, and EQ corrections.

Before deciding that the NG is the issue, consider finding a VST piano (and/or a different brand keyboard) to try, and then try a pair of 5" nearfield monitors set close to see if that give you what you want.

[cphollis]

Another related thought? When I play the Nord piano samples through really high-end stuff and no processing, I don't always like the sound -- almost *too* detailed, depending on the mic positions, with the Royal Grand 3D being just fine always. Which is why I use compression and a bit of EQ to take the edge off.

[lawman]

Thanks folks, for all of your helpful comments to date. (I hope, though, that saying “thanks” at this point does not deter further suggestions from you and from others as well!)

Let me start off by repeating that VST’s and software pianos are just not on my agenda, despite all of your well-meaning observations.

Next, Chuck, you really got me thinking. Your comments about compression intrigue me. I’ve never worked with a compressor, other than the clumsy button and knob combination on the NG. Maybe that’s a direction that bears further investigation. Also, you mentioned creating a software “channel strip” on your digital mixer. Might I ask what pixie dust you’re using in there? And what is this “multpressor” than helps with the clanging and harshness? I greatly appreciate your taking the time to give me your thoughtful suggestions in the first place, and I hope that these picky follow-up questions aren’t too annoying!

And Maurus, you’re right to be curious as to my interest in electronic instruments given that I have a magnificent 7’ Steinway in my living room. I love that piano, and it loves me back, every day. Bach, Chopin, Brubeck, old-time boogie-woogie blues, etc. On the other hand, I have a rock-and-roll background and I am an enthusiastic student of what some call classic rock (although debaters debate about the definition), as well as R&B and assorted contemporary stuff. Real-life pianos are great for some of this, but I need EP’s and organ as well. (For instance, What’d I Say and My Life just sound better on an EP, and it would be offensive to attempt Green-Eyed Lady on a grand piano.) I also like to play at night, when my wife is in slumberland, and my headphones do not disturb her.

You’re also right, Ajstan, that I can’t expect to replicate the experience of playing a genuine acoustic piano; however that is not my goal. I’m simply trying to get sounds that are of comparable quality to the demo’s Nord offers on its website even though, granted, my speakers are a few feet away.

So far I haven’t come close enough to stop trying, and my instincts tell me that I just don’t know (yet) what I don’t know. So please keep those suggestions coming!

[cphollis]

Hi, sure, I'll share a bit. I've taught myself a pretty serious chunk of audio engineering along the way for recording and live sound, and it's starting to pay off

A "channel strip" is shorthand for saying "gain staging, EQ, compression, limiter, etc ...". It may or may not include things like reverb, delay, modulation, etc. Basically, all the stuff you see in a DAW, or what a pro sound engineer would do to your signal if recording, performing, mixing, etc.

The Nords have an easy-to-use subset of these things that are great for 95% of situations, so we're going to talk about that other 5%.

Compression is a very powerful tool and is worth taking the time to figure out what it does to sound. The basic idea is that as volume increases above a threshold, it gets progressively more squeezed. A limiter is a compressor that sets a hard limit. Expanders do the same thing in reverse, and so on.

Why is this important for acoustic pianos? Because they can produce such a wide dynamic range, and with modern audio technology, many of the sources of compression are now gone (vinyl records, for example). Consider what happens when you bang a hard E chord. The sound pressure spikes to a very loud transient full of rich harmonics, which your ear interprets as harshness or clanginess. The more you spend on high end speakers, the clangier it sounds!

EQ that subtracts out the high harmonics will help a bit, but also affect all the notes, and not just that chord you played. Not ideal. What *would* be ideal is to quickly react to the transient, squeeze it for a few milliseconds, and then release it. That's the idea behind a compressor. So you will often see controls like attack (how fast) and release (how long), in addition to threshold (where it starts), ratio (how severely you compress) and a few other related items.

You can use compression to "pull up" quiet parts without making everything louder. Indeed that's a cool new feature on the NS4 that has my eye. If you bang on keys a bit like I do, I'm always using some form compression in my channel strip. You'll also want it for any keyboard sound that produces sharp transients. You don't have a Nord with an organ engine, but when you have percussion on it can be a beast on the ears unless you run it through the typical stuff: tube preamp simulator, leslie simulator and so on. That's what's happening on the APs but much less so.

A multipressor is what you get when an EQ and a compressor have kids. There are four compressors, each assigned to a different frequency band, just like all the individual filters on an EQ. If you don't go nuts with knob settings, it evens things out as you move up and down the keyboard. Want a little more sparkle in the higher octaves? Compensating for room resonances? You'll probably prefer its more subtle results to the more surgical EQ.

I am about halfway through exploring the world of compressors and what you can do with them, and it's pretty useful stuff no matter what you're playing.

So, bottom line, when it's live gigging time, the onboard Nord FX are more than adequate. That being said, I run my own band, we use high end gear, and I perform live with channel strip processing, both for my IEMs and FOH. It's an indulgence of mine.

Hope this helps!

EDIT: I went back and did a critical listen of some of the more recent Nord piano demos (not the ones of the samples themselves). They're using compression of some sort. As would I, as it makes it sound better!

[ajstan]

Hey @lawman, here's something to check (which you may have already done). Have you tried plugging your phone into your system and played one of the Nord videos as a reference track? That would help to determine if the issue is with the NG output or the rest of the signal chain.

[anotherscott]

I realize that “powered speakers will never sound as good as headphones,” but jeez, I thought that this rig would come a lot closer than it does...I also realize that headphones make a vast difference, but I don't want to be always tethered to them.

Are you saying that your Nord Grand sounds fine through your headphones, and is only disappointing when played through your speakers? Since we know the speakers should be at least pretty good sounding, that would seem to point to the issue possibly being your room.

I have a magnificent 7’ Steinway in my living room. I love that piano, and it loves me back, every day.

My 16’ X 11’ studio is only halfway-treated with good acoustic paneling

Acoustic paneling is a whole conversation by itself, and merely their presence should not be seen as a panacea, nor even always necessarily as a positive. To completely factor out whatever effects the room may be having, it could be an interesting experiment to set up the Nord and its speakers in the living room with your piano, to see if it still sounds as bad in a room where your real piano sounds great. I'm not saying you need to compare it to the acoustic, that's a certain road to disappointment. But just compared to how the Nord sounds in your studio, it would be interesting to know whether it sounds better or worse than that in the living room.