Stage piano w/ good synths - NS3 vs alternatives?

aperturevx · Post by **aperturevx** » 09 Jan 2022, 21:23

Hey Nord forum. Looking for some advice on how best to upgrade my rig and figured I'd ask here. I know this question has been beat to death on this forum but figured I'd ask anyway.

I'm a classically trained pianist but play a lot of jazz, funk, R&B, blues, rock, etc. I haven't gigged in a while due to Covid but am in a band again and looking to upgrade my rig. My current setup is an old Roland RD700GX (88key) with a Nord Electro 4D 61SW on top. I love the Nord for organ work with the physical drawbars & waterfall keys, and the EP sounds are great too. The Roland has been a trusty board for over 10 yrs but is now technically inferior to today's offerings, so is due for a replacement.

My new band plays a lot of 80s covers and I find my rig just isn't cutting the mustard when it comes to synth sounds. I need to be able to replicate (or get close to) tones from the likes of Parliament, Rufus, Londonbeat, Coldjack etc, as well as rock stuff like Rush, the Cars, and so on. I need to be able to save and store polyphonic synth patches as presets on a stage keyboard. Action is also really important to me since I don't own an acoustic piano at home (live in a condo). While this will primarily be for stage, I will also sit down at home to play Chopin, Debussy, Rachmaninov etc as well as Dave Brubeck, Herbie Hancock, Chick Corea etc. It has to feel and sound real. So ideally, I'd like a new 88key stage piano with good action, a decent synth section, and good acoustic piano and orchestral sounds. EPs and organs are not as critical since I already have the Electro.

So on to the options...

I initially tried the Nord Stage 3 and liked the onboard synth. Lots of options for customization and everything is at my fingertips as expected with no menu diving. I'm not crazy about the action however and it also makes my Electro a bit redundant. I've also never been a fan of Nord's string and horns sounds, even the ones from the sample library. They just sound flat and artificial to my ears compared to the offerings from Roland and Korg. Can anyone tell me if the included orchestral sounds on the NS3 are different than what's available on the Nord Sample Library v2.0? If not, then this could be a dealbreaker. Also, are splits fully customizable, or limited to the 5-6 preset locations (lights above the keyboard?)

I also rented the Roland RD2000 for a while and fell in love with the PHA-50 action. It's probably the best DP action I've ever played for classical and jazz work. However, it doesn't have a true on-board synth, just samples, and no arpeggiator or oscillators etc. I have heard there are downloads that expand the synth section a lot, but not sure how close the samples come to what I'm trying to cover. But maybe it would be good enough for my purposes. I also considered the Fantom 8 (same action plus a real synth), but it's $2k more, a lot bigger/heavier (not ideal for gigging), and is geared more towards music production. I wouldn't use 90% of its features.

Finally, I've heard good things about the Korg Nautilus and the Kronos (now discontinued I think?) as well as the Yamaha Montage, but haven't had the opportunity to play either of these, so not sure how they stack up.

Any and all suggestions and advice are welcome. I don't know if it's possible to achieve everything I want (grand piano action, true synths, good orchestra section, portability) in a single board. For the price of a NS3 or Roland Fantom I could buy the RD2000 and something like the Korg Prologue or Behringer DeepMind to complement it, and then run a 2board setup with RD2000 on the bottom and either Nord Electro or synth on top, depending on the gig.

Thanks!

catosim · Post by **catosim** » 10 Jan 2022, 00:52

Hi, and welcome to the forum.
The Nord Stage is great in many ways, and is truly a great live-board. The action is what it is, and the "lightnes" is (my theory, not stated form Nord) a compromise to be able to play piano, organ and synth on the same key-action.
The strings and horns aren't that good, we can agree to that. But many forum-members have made many good programmings available on the forum.
The samples are the same as in v2.0. Rumours states that a library v4.0 is in the making, and that they probably will be compatible with the Stage 3. But what they bring in more sonic capabilities is for the moment only theories.
The splits are fixed, according to the lights above the keyboard.
I haven't tried the Kronos (only for a short time in a store), but I've read lots of good revues about it, and I see it's a much used keyboard among great keyboardists.
I'd love to own one for myself, but aren't currently in use of it so I chose not to.
Basically; if you are unsure if The Nord Stage 3 is gonna suit your needs, better consider a Roland, Korg or Yamaha.
I'm thrilled with my Nord Stage, and use other instruments to compliment my needs regarding strings or more sonic capabilities.
Also I have learned to deal with the key-action, and don't find it difficult to play dynamic piano parts. I would prefer a slightly heavier action though.

cphollis · Post by **cphollis** » 10 Jan 2022, 08:11

A few thoughts?

1. Consider using something like a NS3C with a weighted controller that you like -- best of both worlds. Using a single keybed for everything is a harsh compromise.
2. With a bit of effort, I find that the horns and strings are fine for ensemble work, just don't plan on taking an extended solo.
3. If you think you'll be covering a lot of different genres, you'll appreciate the NS3. You might also appreciate how easy it is to get through a setlist.
4. If you find you just can't live without an additional synth, control it from the Stage using the extern section.

neomad · Post by **neomad** » 10 Jan 2022, 08:26

My 2cts: I have been playing Nord since 5 years now, but considering your needs, I would go for Kronos without hesitation. Pianos are stunning, horns are great and the synth section is just neverending. The organ is, to my ears, way below Nord’s but will do the job. Action on the 88 is amazing too.

The synth section on the Nord is, compared to Kronos, very limited. It sounds great, may cover a lot of fields, but sometimes frustrating. In Kronos (and Montage, Fantom, FA, etc) you layer at least 8 synth parts (vs.2 in NS) and the splits are free.

Last: the setlist function in Kronos is greater too (screen).

Did you try the new Fantom? Never tried the 88 version but the board rocks!

Post by **ajstan** » 10 Jan 2022, 17:41

From what you're describing, it appears that a hammer-action keybed and piano sounds are most important and will be used the most, so the RD2000 (or whatever you connect with as a stand-alone stage piano) is a good starting point.

A Roland Integra 7 module would allow you to use your new stage piano and have thousands of strings, horns, and synth sounds of the 80s and 90s at your fingertips in a single board solution, although I don't believe it has an arpeggiator. You can then choose to add your Electro or a synth that fills in the gaps for a two-board rig. For synth-heavy music, two keyboards will be helpful.

anotherscott · Post by **anotherscott** » 10 Jan 2022, 19:22

aperturevx wrote:I've also never been a fan of Nord's string and horns sounds, even the ones from the sample library. They just sound flat and artificial to my ears compared to the offerings from Roland and Korg

That's inherent to the Nords. The (non-piano) samples are limited to a single velocity layer, with minimal programming tweaks available (to you, or to the programmer). However, the EXT function of the NS3 makes it pretty easy to grab additional sounds from an external device (sound module, iPad, etc.).

aperturevx wrote:Also, are splits fully customizable, or limited to the 5-6 preset locations (lights above the keyboard?)

the split points are fixed, though you can make the sound transitions "fade" in and out around the split point, instead of only having a "hard" split, if you prefer.

aperturevx wrote:I also considered the Fantom 8...I've heard good things about the Korg Nautilus and the Kronos (now discontinued I think?) as well as the Yamaha Montage...I don't know if it's possible to achieve everything I want (grand piano action, true synths, good orchestra section, portability) in a single board.

Those are basically your options, keeping in mind your feelings about the Nord and Roland actions you tried, but yes, portability is where they all fall short. I'd say forget the Yamaha, since it's the heaviest of the bunch, and the weakest of them from a VA synth perspective (similar to how you said about the Roland, "it doesn't have a true on-board synth, just samples" except it does add a true FM synth), and considering you already know you're happy with the action of the lighter Fantom, for your purposes, I don't see much rationale for looking at the heavier Montage. That leaves Fantom, Kronos, Nautilus. Nautilus is lightest, but has the fewest real-time controls and is the only one of the three without aftertouch, things that may or may not matter to you. Action is a big variable... that might be the thing that most tempts you to bite the bullet and stick with the Fantom over either of the Korgs.

Either that, or look at the other ways to go... getting a board plus an external sound source (iPad, Integra, whatever), go up to three boards total, or replace not just your 88 but also your Electro, going with a different pair entirely (say, the RD2000 on the bottom and Hammond SK Pro on top which would shore up the synth side where you're finding the RD2000 weak, without necessarily having to go all the way up to a Nord Stage 3 Compact, which of course would also make for a great top).

Also, though, getting back to the external sound source idea, the RD2000 makes for a good controller as well, so if your only real problem with it is weakness on the synth side, you could add something like an iPad, or a synth module (Roland has the Boutiques, and there are numerous others you can get). Maybe that gets you all you need, in a preferred weight and price range?

catosim · Post by **catosim** » 10 Jan 2022, 20:02

anotherscott wrote: I'd say forget the Yamaha, since it's the heaviest of the bunch

The weight is indeed of importance: Nord Stage 19kg, Korg Kronos 24kg, Roland Fantom 27,5kg, Yamaha Montage 28,5kg

Post by **maxpiano** » 10 Jan 2022, 20:10

catosim wrote:
anotherscott wrote: I'd say forget the Yamaha, since it's the heaviest of the bunch
The weight is indeed of importance: Nord Stage 19kg, Korg Kronos 24kg, Roland Fantom 27,5kg, Yamaha Montage 28,5kg

And not just that, if the original question is "Stage piano w/ good synths - NS3 vs alternatives?", none of those is a "stage piano", they are workstations...

anotherscott · Post by **anotherscott** » 10 Jan 2022, 21:04

maxpiano wrote:And not just that, if the original question is "Stage piano w/ good synths - NS3 vs alternatives?", none of those is a "stage piano", they are workstations...

Kronos and Nautilus are workstations, Fantom and Montage aren't really... but these can function as a stage piano about as well as a Nord Stage 3 can. I see where you're coming from, but I could also argue that, by definition, a "stage piano with a good synth" can't exist, because once it's' got full synth functionality, it isn't a stage piano anymore.

Really, I wouldn't even call the NS3 a stage piano... in the Nord line, I'd reserve that term for the Nord Pianos and the Nord Grand. But it IS tricky to categorize things some time... manufacturers aren't forced to only come out with boards that fit into simple defined groups.

Bringing this back to the OP's request, while the Fantom can do a whole lot of stuff he doesn't care about, if he had the muscles to handle it, it is I think the only 88 you can get that has quality piano sounds, dedicated knobby synth functions, and high quality orchestral sounds (between the multiple velocity samples and the SuperNATURAL modeling). Nice board. If the 76-key version weighed under 30 lbs, I'd own one.

Post by **WannitBBBad** » 10 Jan 2022, 21:24

aperturevx wrote:...My new band plays a lot of 80s covers and I find my rig just isn't cutting the mustard when it comes to synth sounds..

Hello, and welcome to the Forum. I can't add much to the great comments above but to say that I've found the Stage 3 very well suited for covering songs from the 80s. Pairing your preferred Roland RD2000 with a Stage 3 Compact as noted by cphollis would be a great duo. Here are some examples covering synths from the 70s/80s playing only the Stage 3, no overdubs, and sometimes adding a drum track. Along with being able to tap into some very knowledgeable folks, this Forum is loaded with programs and samples provided freely by many members to help get you started. Good luck to you!