6D Organ Bass Question

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6D Organ Bass Question

Post by alexanderlyon »

Hello everyone!

I'm the happy owner of a 6D SW 73 -- the first electronic keyboard I've bought since I picked up a Roland F-something with weighted keys back in the 90s. Things have changed a lot, and in a good way! :-)

I love the Electro, and am having a lot of fun messing around with organ settings. I'm primarily a jazz pianist but am a huge B3 fan, and have wanted an instrument with a good B3 sound for a long time. I have *no idea* what I'm doing, and am only slowly figuring things out with the help of a friend who is a professional organist.

I recently noticed something odd, however: On the advice of my buddy, I split the keyboard and set my lower manual to 808000000. When I push that second drawbar all the way up, though, and walk up from the low end of the keyboard, the pitch keeps "resetting" at C -- so for example every Bb below the split point has the same exact pitch!

The only way I can prevent that from happening is by hitting the "octave up" button for the lower manual or pulling that second drawbar out all the way. (I tried pulling the second drawbar out just partially, but it really has to come down all the way for the pitches to land where I think they should.)

My B3 buddy mentioned something called a "foldback" effect. Is this what I am experiencing when I use the 808 setting?

I like the sound/timbre of the 808 setting a lot, but as you can probably tell the pitch effect has thrown me for a loop!
Last edited by alexanderlyon on 29 Apr 2021, 21:30, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: 6D Organ Bass Question

Post by be lee vit »

I'm pretty sure that is foldback! One of the fun idiosyncracies of the Hammond organ...
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Re: 6D Organ Bass Question

Post by alexanderlyon »

I was convinced I had done something wrong! I kept pushing the buttons and adjusting the drawbars to "fix" it. My B3 friend told me that foldback makes basslines more "compact," and at first I didn't understand what he meant. But I played around with it more today, and I'm starting to get it. I'm going to have to relearn how to play basslines, but it does open up all kinds of interesting possibilities.

Actually, just having played around with the Nord a bit has made me realize how different organ and piano really are--even if I'm only playing a simulation of an organ! I think I'm going to have to relearn a lot of things...
Last edited by alexanderlyon on 30 Apr 2021, 01:57, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 6D Organ Bass Question

Post by FZiegler »

Ask your friend where middle C is and you learn even more about organ playing.
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Re: 6D Organ Bass Question

Post by alexanderlyon »

Hey, is that a manual (and pedal) joke?!

I almost get it!

See, I *am* learning! ;-)
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Re: 6D Organ Bass Question

Post by Hlaalu »

If you are new to the Hammond you'll find a lot of oddities/quirks, or little unexpected things to discover anyway. To name some, the second drawbar from the left being actually a fifth above the fundamental (8'), the percussion only working from the B preset of the upper manual (though this is not applicable to the Electro of course), then percussion disabling the 9th drawbar (hugely heated topic on this forum... search a bit and you'll find out :lol: ), then the wheel/pickups leakage phenomenon... which all make the instrument unique in its own imperfect nature.
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Re: 6D Organ Bass Question

Post by alexanderlyon »

Hlaalu wrote:If you are new to the Hammond you'll find a lot of oddities/quirks, or little unexpected things to discover anyway. To name some, the second drawbar from the left being actually a fifth above the fundamental (8')
Oh, that would explain why pulling the second drawbar from the left all the way out eliminates the foldback effect!

I've been slowly exploring some of those other settings, and have been amazed at how they all tie together; changing one seems to affect how I hear the others, and the possibilities make my head spin.

I feel like I've fallen down a rabbit hole with this stuff, but in an entirely good way. It's fun to have a new, healthy obsession; I really feel like I'm learning an entirely new instrument. (Well, I *think* it's healthy. But it could be expensive: I'm already fantasizing about getting a dual manual rig, some foot pedals...)

Never having played a semi-weighted keyboard before, I'm also having to modify my technique. Is that a common experience?

For example, I was having a bit of arm/hand pain, and couldn't figure out why; I have struggled with tendinitis over the years, but the piano never hurts me, just the computer keyboard. I was worried that I couldn't handle the pushback from the springs on the SW keyboard (different than the mechanics of the piano), or was playing too hard because of the change in tactile feedback, or was overdoing things like holding down a note with my right-hand pinky and going nuts with the other fingers below it (*that* doesn't work on the piano), etc. etc.

Then, the other night, I realized I didn't have to bed the keys to play this thing; I could just set the trigger point to "high" and brush them with my fingers. That must seem like the most obvious thing, but for me it was a revelation.
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Re: 6D Organ Bass Question

Post by Hlaalu »

alexanderlyon wrote: Oh, that would explain why pulling the second drawbar from the left all the way out eliminates the foldback effect!
Yes, but it's not a matter of first vs second drawbar per-se. Consider this: there is a fixed number of tonewheels in organ, usually 91. But the actual pitches needed to make all 9 drawbars sound the way they are formally intended to would exceed 91. So at the lower and upper end of the register the same wheels (from an octave above and below, respectively) are "recycled" again. For example, there is no 32' drawbar, so the 16' is used twice instead. If you only pull out the second drawbar, you are in fact making your sound come, for any of the given 61 key, an octave and a fifth above the note that would sound if you had pulled out the 16'. This means that even if you press the lowest C on the manual, there's no need for foldback because the dedicated tonewheel is actually there. Not sure if my explanation was clear. The same thing happens in reverse at the higher end of the range by the way.
alexanderlyon wrote: I've been slowly exploring some of those other settings, and have been amazed at how they all tie together; changing one seems to affect how I hear the others, and the possibilities make my head spin.

I feel like I've fallen down a rabbit hole with this stuff, but in an entirely good way. It's fun to have a new, healthy obsession; I really feel like I'm learning an entirely new instrument. (Well, I *think* it's healthy. But it could be expensive: I'm already fantasizing about getting a dual manual rig, some foot pedals...)
It's of course true that piano and organs are fundamentally different, yet there's also some crossover. There could be more difference in two styles of piano playing (or organ playing) than a certain style of piano playing and another style of organ playing. It depends on the genre too. You mention you play jazz. I do too (no, I suck but I have fun trying :D). I think you'll find principles behind chord voicings change quite a bit between the two instruments... organ voicings tend to be less dense than piano's, given the inherently more muddy sound of the organ. But a "math" on this has yet to come. Rolling chords is another of those things that don't really work on the organ, because of the sudden stop of the sound as you release the key -- which, in my opinion, is an even more drastic difference than the mere fact that notes on the organ can be sustained indefinitely. But then as you noticed, the coolness of holding down a note, playing with swell and the Leslie and poking other notes is a feeling that the piano player can't enjoy either!

It would be interesting to hear a more coherent and systematic "cross study" to see in which way jazz principles are applied to the two, but unfortunately, while jazz piano studying is fairly structured, there seems to exists a mystic aura around jazz organ that doesn't really make things simple in this respect. There aren't many teachers either.

And the ones who do exist, tend to place emphasis to an aspect of jazz organ playing that I personally have never felt much affinity with, that is the "traditional" jazz organ way of playing the bassline with the left hand and NOT having a real bass player. "Can" the organ play bass? Sure, but it's a compromise to me. If you play organ as a solo then sure, but in a band it can't and it doesn't beat the sound of a double bass, in jazz at least. Many bass-less jazz "organ trios" are composed of organ, guitar and drums, and I must admit, I can somewhat live with the guitar but I'd really like to see a real double bass in there with a real bass player. There's not comparison between that woody sound of plucked strings, slightly out of tune, and the somewhat colder, always in pitch, even sounding bass of the organ. Yet, a huge amount of Hammond jazz teaching revolves around the building and playing of left hand basslines -- already implying that your left hand IS supposed to be the bass player. I don't know, I just think there's a different/better instrument in there, waiting to be discovered by someone, though I am the first admitting I would be the last person on Earth with the required skill to put this thought into practice.
alexanderlyon wrote: Never having played a semi-weighted keyboard before, I'm also having to modify my technique. Is that a common experience?
If you mean the "finger kinetics" aspect of it, it of course requires less weight in terms of key pressure, which could ease your forearms a bit, but then it perhaps takes more fingers stretchability to reach other notes while you keep pressing others, which might explain your discomfort.

Keep us posted! :)
Last edited by Hlaalu on 30 Apr 2021, 18:23, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: 6D Organ Bass Question

Post by alexanderlyon »

Hlaalu wrote: Not sure if my explanation was clear.
Your explanation was great! But I think it's going to take a while (and some more background reading) for me to understand it completely. :-)
Hlaalu wrote: I think you'll find principles behind chord voicings change quite a bit between the two instruments... organ voicings tend to be less dense than piano's, given the inherently more muddy sound of the organ.
Yes!!! That is one of the very first things I noticed: Some of the voicings I like most on piano do not work well on organ at all, and some voicings that sound sort of bland on piano sound great on organ.
Hlaalu wrote: If you mean the "finger kinetics" aspect of it, it of course requires less weight in terms of key pressure, which could ease your forearms a bit, but then it perhaps takes more fingers stretchability to reach other notes while you keep pressing others, which might explain your discomfort.
My wife, who is a percussionist but also plays piano, recently watched me plant the pinky of my right hand on a Bb while playing (or trying to play) lines and moving thirds with my other fingers.

Her reaction: "Well, *that* looks like a recipe for tendinitis!"

But it's so much fun!
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Re: 6D Organ Bass Question

Post by FZiegler »

alexanderlyon wrote:Hey, is that a manual (and pedal) joke?!
I almost get it!
Anyway, it wasn't a joke: I was adding my organ notes in a bigband arrangement, and it sounded horrible - so I noted: 8va to have it sound better. Which was nonsense!

Because I learned afterwards that middle C on the organ is either C2, C3 or C4 on the keyboard - depending on which stops/drawbars you selected: If the first drawbar (subfundamental) is out at least halfway, middle C isn't in the middle of the keyboard ("normal pitch"), but shifted one octave to the right. Seems as if this is a convention for organ players.

Looks as if you've got to learn to think differently, as you can shape sounds much more than on the piano and so seem to need to play more with your ear than with your fingers, if you understand what I mean.
Last edited by FZiegler on 30 Apr 2021, 23:29, edited 1 time in total.
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