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Re: Nord Sample Editor NS3 - Please Nord!
Posted: 13 Nov 2017, 02:27
by anotherscott
cgrafx wrote:Your claiming that its ok for Nord to say nothing and to take as long as they wish to address these issues. I'm saying when they made these units available for sale, they had a legal obligation to meet certain level of expectation and short of that obligates Nord to explain why they are not doing so and what remedy is being made available to fix the problem.
How long a delay in shipping the sample editor for example would be long enough for you to consider it a major breach of contract and the NS3 not fit for purpose. 1 month, 2 months, 6 months, 1 year, Never ship.
I'm not saying it's okay to never deliver. There may indeed be a legal obligation to produce or refund. I'm not even saying that I think it's a good idea for them to keep silent... like I said, I think it would be better PR if they were more communicative. My point is only that any explanation for the delay they may offer, or any new estimate of availability (which may or may not be met), does not really change anything. Whether they choose to make you feel better or not does not change the options available to you today nor does it change whatever legal obligation they may have to produce a solution.
cgrafx wrote:There are clearly different ways of running a company. One paints the customer as an adversary to be avoided at all cost except when collecting their money. The other treats their customers as valued members of the ecosystem, relying on them to help shape the coarse of their products in order to better serve the community. The second business model requires open conversations throughout the coarse of development.
They also have no obligation to run their business as you or I deem appropriate. I think Apple's strategy of coming out with new iOS updates that sometimes break old functionality, and not providing you with any way to revert to the previous OS, is atrocious. But it is what it is, Apple is doing just fine, and I can buy their product, or not.
Again, my simple advice is don't buy a product if it doesn't do what you need.
Re: Nord Sample Editor NS3 - Please Nord!
Posted: 13 Nov 2017, 05:16
by ajstan
While I agree that the delays are irritating, I would think that Nord is sufficiently covered with the usual disclaimers on their marketing materials. For example, on the page referenced, there is a sentence near the bottom that reads: “Specifications subject to change without notice.“
Re: Nord Sample Editor NS3 - Please Nord!
Posted: 13 Nov 2017, 12:00
by Quai34
@Analogika, thanks for your kind words on your last post to me, I know I appreciate but I would have loved to see Cgraph keeping his Stage 3, even if I don't have one yet, I was felling sorry for,him and the CIE and trying to find how they could have done better...Especially as usually I don't complain a lot but as communication/marketing is ore my job/passion, I might have reacted a bit too much in my first statement.
@Anotherhscoot:again better explanation than me with a balance between customers focus and how a CIE could choose to do its business, thanks for this point of view.
Re: Nord Sample Editor NS3 - Please Nord!
Posted: 14 Nov 2017, 14:32
by lordy
Nord, you do the ostrich. It is not good. It is not smart.
Re: Nord Sample Editor NS3 - Please Nord!
Posted: 14 Nov 2017, 15:19
by kbrkr
cgrafx wrote:anotherscott wrote:cgrafx wrote:I'm sorry but the price of the board absolutely has something to do with it. $300 is not $3500.
And what does a car manufacturer owe you for buying their $30,000 car? Really, nothing except warranty service. And do you think you're going to be kept apprised about what Apple is doing behind the scenes to fix their bugs, just because you spend $1,000+ on the newest iPhone? Don't hold your breath.
The car manufacturer owes you through implied contract a product that matches the advertised specs and if they cannot deliver that then they are legally obligated to fix, replace or refund my money.
If apple ships a product with significant non-working features there would be holy hell to pay.
The lack of the sample editor significantly cripples the usefulness of the NS3. The B3 implementation is less than stellar and should be fixed but doesn't rise to the same level of concern.
The fact that some people are experiencing latency problems is also a concern as it may (repeat "may") be an indication that there is insufficient processing power to handle the level of polyphony that was advertised.
The removal of the Dual KB functionality without any explanation is also of great concern.
Selling any product comes with a specific implied contract that the product will be fit for the purpose that it was advertised for. Not 80% of that purpose.
Your claiming that its ok for Nord to say nothing and to take as long as they wish to address these issues. I'm saying when they made these units available for sale, they had a legal obligation to meet certain level of expectation and short of that obligates Nord to explain why they are not doing so and what remedy is being made available to fix the problem.
How long a delay in shipping the sample editor for example would be long enough for you to consider it a major breach of contract and the NS3 not fit for purpose. 1 month, 2 months, 6 months, 1 year, Never ship.
How many people would consider the NS3 complete without the sample editor? My guess is not many.
Six months from now if the sample editor has not been released, how many people are going to want to keep their NS3 and is Nord going to absorb the cost of returning all of those units?
There are clearly different ways of running a company. One paints the customer as an adversary to be avoided at all cost except when collecting their money. The other treats their customers as valued members of the ecosystem, relying on them to help shape the coarse of their products in order to better serve the community. The second business model requires open conversations throughout the coarse of development.
I'm going to leave this discussion at this point since Nord, which clearly is aware of what transpires in these forums, has chosen not to engage in the conversation.
If things have not progressed as hoped before NAMM (Jan 25 2018), then I'll have to see if having a direct conversation with them at the show will make any difference.
Personally I'm not holding my breath, as the last interaction I had when them at NAMM was less than productive and they pretty much blew me off.
+1
Couldn't of said it better myself. One of the reasons I purchased this board is because of the way it was advertised handling custom samples. Since this feature doesn't exist, it just sits in my studio and never goes out on gigs. I didn't want to invest in a studio board, I needed a board for LIVE GIGS!!!! Meanwhile, I am past the point of returning the board and the delay in the editor has caused me to be stuck with it. That is an extreme cock-up on Nord's part.
Re: Nord Sample Editor NS3 - Please Nord!
Posted: 14 Nov 2017, 18:42
by analogika
lordy wrote:Nord, you do the ostrich. It is not good. It is not smart.
Yeah, where "doing the ostrich" means "leave me the f**** alone while I'm working my ass off".
Re: Nord Sample Editor NS3 - Please Nord!
Posted: 14 Nov 2017, 23:15
by Gambold
>There are clearly different ways of running a company. One paints the customer as an adversary to be avoided at all cost except when collecting their money. The other treats their customers as valued members of the ecosystem, relying on them to help shape the coarse of their products in order to better serve the community. The second business model requires open conversations throughout the coarse of development.<
There's a third way, which I think covers most companies including Clavia. Basically a company that's run like anything else run by humans (families, clubs, schools, countries)...a group of people that achieves occasional success with a host of f*ck-ups in between.
I don't think there's an adversarial process at work here. Nor do I think there is cutting edge engagement with the customer base going on either. I think this is a manufacturing company with the same percentages of visionaries, hard workers, slackers and fools as any other company. They will have their moments of greatness, and they will have their failures too. Most of the time they will mosey around in between.
That doesn't mean they get a pass for not delivering product as promised or even implied. By all means, pile on, and keep the pressure going. This is the place to do that, don't worry about the cheerleaders.
Re: Nord Sample Editor NS3 - Please Nord!
Posted: 14 Nov 2017, 23:25
by Gambold
>I’m just a little tired of people feeling entitled to this or that treatment. <
Entitlement is not at issue here. This is a mercantile exchange....the exchange of money renders any notion of what's fair and what isn't as purely negotiable.
Now, expectations can be unreasonable or too grandiose for the money paid, but that's for the customer and the market to finally determine. There is no such thing as "entitlement" when it comes to what is or isn't provided in a sale.
Basically what's happening here is that a group of customers feel they have not received what they thought they paid for. They aren't acting "entitled," they are disputing the value of what they received for their payment. That includes the product AND the service and support behind the product.
Re: Nord Sample Editor NS3 - Please Nord!
Posted: 15 Nov 2017, 00:02
by ericL
I was a very early adopter of the NS2 (had probably the first unit in the US) and it had a few early issues, but nothing significant quite like what this sample situation is playing out to be. I lust after the NS3, but had decided long before its arrival that I would hold tight on buying one until the initial bugs or missing features had been resolved. Many of them have been resolved. I'll continue waiting to purchase until at least this one is fixed and probably others. I'm hoping by NAMM in January (where I'll get some quality time at the Nord booth) they will have some of these features settled.
Re: Nord Sample Editor NS3 - Please Nord!
Posted: 15 Nov 2017, 04:23
by Al_DeKlein
ericL wrote:I was a very early adopter of the NS2 (had probably the first unit in the US) and it had a few early issues, but nothing significant quite like what this sample situation is playing out to be. I lust after the NS3, but had decided long before its arrival that I would hold tight on buying one until the initial bugs or missing features had been resolved. Many of them have been resolved. I'll continue waiting to purchase until at least this one is fixed and probably others. I'm hoping by NAMM in January (where I'll get some quality time at the Nord booth) they will have some of these features settled.
I'm with you on "holding tight", in spite of my my mutual lust for an NS3C, until the following items are checked:
1) Compatible sample library posted. *Check, finally.
2) Sample Editor posted. *Getting close?
3) At least an OS of 1.3x or 1.4x *I'll have to see what features are added/updated ...or deleted, like the Dual KB in v1.24! Supposedly (per another thread) major changes to the organ section are coming - I'll believe it, when I see it.
4) Organ parameters are a LOT closer to those in the NE5 *For my purposes, the B3 organ is as important as the synth section - I sold my Hammond XK3c and Leslie 145 after buying my NE5D-73. Maybe NE5 Hammond/Leslie parameters missing in the NS3 is worth it's own thread?
5) Everyone has NS3Cs in stock, for real competitive pricing. *Probably not until 2018-01+ in the USA
6) A new version of the OM is printed, picking up all of the updated/added/deleted features. *I would think a revised version of the NS3 OM would be a good indicator that the final features are being settled on.