Grand Piano sounds disappoints

[Cornopean]

I too have a Yamaha StagePAS PA system (the 300). It is distinctly superior to any keyboard amp I've heard, and for low volume piano use, the equal of the K10s I've A-B'd it with. Obviously it lacks bass for full-range music, and lacks volume for more than modest use, but the amp is not the issue here if being used to audition at sensible volumes.

I have also A-B'd the Yamaha Motif piano sample (in my case, through an MO6, which has the Motif ES samples, which I think used the piano voice first introduced on the S90) with the Nords, and I find the Yamaha voice more even, more cutting in a mix, and more digital. The Nord samples are more varied, need some EQ tweaks to cut through a mix, but feel far more real to me.

You'll note I don't say one is better, but for my use, I greatly prefer the Nord samples over a very similar PA system. However I am not looking for samples that cut through a mix.

I've been playing acoustic pianos 90% of my life, good ones, bad ones, indifferent ones. Steinway concert grands, Yamaha C-series, characterful old English makes like Broadwood and Challen, ghastly efforts from Knight and Zender. The last one I played was a stencil I forget the alleged name of, straight strung upright in need of attention with a tuning wrench or axe. And until I took a career break a couple of years back, I was a university lecturer (professor in US parlance) teaching music technology at a good university, including critical listening, the way our brains listen to sound, the construction of sampled instruments, and the theory and practice of amplification.

Which is to say I'm not just giving a two cent opinion when I say that we all listen to things differently, based on what we are and are not familiar with, and also based upon a whole set of other circumstances not actually related to sound quality, although we don't realise this. Many firmly held beliefs about sound quality are impossible to verify in the real world, and if I am honest, I cannot tell the difference in many circumstances where self-described experts or audiophiles have been certain there was one, because there is not a significant difference. I can, and have, got expert listeners at the highest level to misidentify vinyl versus CD, or real instruments versus digital ones, simply by giving different cues, but keeping the audio unaltered.

So, steering back on topic, none of the opinions in this thread are necessarily incorrect. The original poster and others have come to the Nord's sounds from different previous experience, with different expectations, and will be experiencing different non-audio elements that have a less obvious but significant effect on what they think to be a purely auditory audition. Personally I hated the first Nord Stage I came across, as I was thrown in at the deep end on a gig and couldn't work out what was going on. The only monitoring was via reflections from the house PA! I have since come to love the Nord ethos and sounds, but they are definitely very different from Yamaha.

I'm rambling...

[Frantz]

One good thing on the NS2 is that you can split and eq two pianos into one.
Panel A with a U3 above C4
Panel B with a bosendorfer under C4

[hijlko]

Just got myself a Yamaha MOXF8 (with the sound engine of the Motif XF), previously used a Motif ES rack / ES8 and still using a Nord Stage Classic. Here are my two cents.

The pianos of the ES do not cut very well through the mix, lack sustain and do not sing. There is some sort of a deep "boom" in the lower keys which should not be there. The sound is very sterile and I am bored playing it within 5 minutes.

The piano's of the Nord were a big relief. It's alive !!! Because of the low memory of the classic I have only loaded two piano's: Yamaha C5 close (if I remember well) and a Stage piano (which seems to have sadly disappeared from newer library's). When I need a "pop" sound I use the Stage sound and add a little high and cut a bit of the mids. With a tiny bit of slow chorus it's a great sound for popsongs. For more acoustic sounds I use the other one.

Today I did a A/B comparison between the Nord and the MOXF. The MOXF piano (much better than the ES piano by the way) is close to the Stage piano sound of the Nord. The latter wins in transparancy though and still prefer the Nord although I could live with the Yamaha. At the moment I cannot compare to the free CP1 and S700 samples of the MOXF.


I agree with all what has been said about amplification. I use Line 6 L2T and L2M powered speakers and I think they are very good for keys.

[jazzystu]

The nord is lacking something.

I would suggest a variety of tunings/velocity curves and a bit more EQ.

I have something called a Boss VF-1 which is a SERIOUS piece of kit. It is a pain to use though (lots of submenus).

Oddly enough, the biggest difference I noticed was playing the piano through a slave keyboard with different velocity curves. It "made" the whole thing, especially the Rhodes.

[Gustavo]

Personally, I love the Nord pianos. But I have noticed problems with amplification. Sometimes the problem was not having it connected on stereo, other time it was a bad cable connector, other time was that it had the mono switch on and another time was accidental aggressive Eq. Also, I always make sure I have a flat eq on the mixer, with at most a slight decrease in the lowest frequency. This is my experience, hope it helps in some way.

Also, I agree with what many have said, you should take some time to audition every single piano sample.

Hope you eventually fall in love with these red beauties.

Saludos,
Gustavo

[Rusty Mike]

I think a lot of this is a matter of opinion - the quality of a piano sound with instruments at this price point are largely subjective.

For what it's worth, I've always felt that the pianos in many Roland and Yamaha instruments are modeled and synthesized to the point of being "perfect" sounding instruments. I have never in my life played a real piano that was perfect itself. They all have personalities, quirks, imperfections and nuances. The Roland and Yamaha pianos are so perfect they don't sound like real pianos to me. Also (in my humble opinion) those pianos also seem to focus a lot on the overtone structures and less so on soundboard qualities, so they end up with complex harmonics but not a whole lot of body. The sole exception to this that I've heard is the S6 sample in the Yamaha CP-4 stage piano. I believe there is a version of it available for the MOXF-8 as a download.

It's the incorporation of actual piano quirks and nuances that makes the Nord pianos so appealing to me. None of them are perfect, and that's great. Every single piano in the library has a distinct personality, and they are all suitable to particular uses and situations. None of them are perfect for everything, so what and how you play needs to help determine which pianos are appropriate for your use. I play jazz piano, both in a big band setting as well as in small combo groups. For my own use, I find the Italian Grand and the Black Upright to be great for me. The Black Upright has a wonderful mid-body sound, with a clear, ringing sustain. You can clearly hear the soundboard. It's not the highest fidelity sound, but it works perfectly with a lot of traditional big band arrangements. The sound quality reminds me very much of the sound characteristics of recorded jazz pianos from the 40's through the 60's. Even though many of those pianos were grands, the recording technology at the time emphasized certain frequencies, which the Black Upright captures very well. Nord Blue Swede upright also has a similar personality.

When I need more overtone or a more powerful sound, I have the Italian Grand loaded. I also like the Grand Lady D and the Concert Grand 2, but the Italian has more body in the soloing zone (the two+ octaves above Middle C). It works well for the combo work and more contemporary big band arrangements.

That being said, there are four things that heavily influence the sound of each of these: dynamics, EQ, reverb and amplification. For every piano you load (acoustic and electric alike), you NEED to experiment with the dynamics selection until you find one that blends your playing style to the sample. Be aware that this WILL be different for each piano sample - don't assume that a single dynamics curve can apply to all your pianos, nor to all the settings for a single piano. For example, I have both normal and bright settings for the Italian, as I like to play Latin tunes with a brighter piano. This brighter piano also has a lighter dynamics curve on it so I can reach the brightness level I want without having to dig into it.

I've said this before on this forum - the EQ is your friend. More specifically, play with the mid sweep. Depending on your amplification, you may have an unwanted emphasis somewhere between 250-400Hz that you need to turn down a bit. I also find that some emphasis in the 4K-6K works as an alternate. You need to tinker with it. This is not unlike working with a real piano to get the character you want out of it in the recording studio.

Also note that the reverb setting you use will affect your sound character, even at low settings. It's not just about the amount you apply, but also the type of reverb. The Room and Stage settings are brighter than the Hall. Try setting your EQ to a satisfactory sound with the reverb off, then turn it on and listen to the change. Don't be afraid to experiment with the different types, or even use no reverb.

Finally, much has been said about amplification. The only thing that I'll add is that I keep multiple patches of the same sound in my Electro, with different EQ and reverb settings to match my situations, either home studio or stage. I use studio monitors at home in stereo. I have piano patches that work with the room and speakers to give me a great sound. I then keep very similar patches that I use on the stage with my QSC K10 speaker. The EQ is different, the reverb is different so I can match the character of the speaker better. I will also tinker with the EQ to accommodate the space I'm playing in.

One final note regarding stereo and mono. My stage sound is mono, and I set the piano programs to MONO to match. The big advantage to this is that MONO will even out the volume throughout the entire keyboard. If you just use the left output, the volume emphasis will be to the lower end of the keyboard, so your right hand will not sound as loud. I believe the instrument is supposed to detect when there is a plug only in one jack, but I can't recall. Either way, setting your program to Mono goes a long way.

It's also OK if you simply don't like the sound of the Nord pianos. We all have ideas of what a great piano sounds like, and there are enough products on the market to provide a reasonable variety.

[RedLeo]

For what it's worth, I've always felt that the pianos in many Roland and Yamaha instruments are modeled and synthesized to the point of being "perfect" sounding instruments. I have never in my life played a real piano that was perfect itself. They all have personalities, quirks, imperfections and nuances. The Roland and Yamaha pianos are so perfect they don't sound like real pianos to me. Also (in my humble opinion) those pianos also seem to focus a lot on the overtone structures and less so on soundboard qualities, so they end up with complex harmonics but not a whole lot of body.

I couldn't agree with this more. I think it also goes some way to explaining why Nord pianos are more fussy about good quality speakers. Nord pianos seem to be thicker in the lower mids, whereas some Yamahas and others, particularly at the budget end, are thinned out a bit - which helps give them that extra sparkle and lightness. Given that budget speakers - particularly PA speakers - are very prone to being boxy at lower mid frequencies, I would guess that Nords tend to bring out the worst in this, where other thinner pianos don't "excite" these nasty frequencies quite so much.

[danrv]

Good post. I've been gigging my new Stage 2 76 for a six or seven months now and I'm still trying to find a good,cutting piano sound
for rock & pop.
Not sure what size the stock pianos are but haven't tried any XL's yet.
I've even upgraded my amplification to a pair of Yamaha DXR10's although I often just use one due to stage space.
They do sound better and clearer that my KC350.

As mentioned, I too find the the notes in the middle of the key range rather nasal. Top end's weak also.
I don't regret buying the Stage 2 as the size and portability are the most important things and there are no other 76 key fully weighted keyboards at this weight. Plus the other sounds are awesome.
Nord's piano sounds have character which is great for certain settings ie recording, solo piano, jazz combo, ballads but for jazz funk, pop and rock I wish I had a Yamaha or Roland piano sound.

Seems a bit crazy after spending out on the Nord but if there was a way of getting the piano sample from my Roland XP80 onto the Stage 2, I'd do it.
That cuts through the live mix so much better than the Nord piano sound.
Body and soundboard qualities aren't really cutting it live when it comes to rock,country stuff like Elton John, Little Feat, Bruce Hornsby.

[maxpiano]

@danrv: have you tried the Bright Grand (any size) with some good EQing?

[anotherscott]

Seems a bit crazy after spending out on the Nord but if there was a way of getting the piano sample from my Roland XP80 onto the Stage 2, I'd do it.

Easy. I'm pretty sure the same basic piano sound is in the Roland JV-1010. They're readily available pretty cheaply on eBay (at least here in the U.S.), they are small and light, and they even have a bunch of other useful sounds in them. Use the Nord's EXT function to split and layer the Roland sounds with the Nord sounds.