Simulate a dual-oscillator synth with the Stage 2?

[Eisenhans]

I'm a synthesizer newbie and the Nord Stage 2 is my first keyboard and this is my first post.

I understand that the NS2 has a “second hidden oscillator" that is used to detune the analog waveforms, and that there are other “sub-oscillators” that are used in Unison mode to thicken the sound. But can I use them in other ways to simulate a dual-oscillator synth?

For example, I'd like to program some of the patches described in Fred Welsh's excellent "Welsh's Synthesizer Cookbook," but it assumes a dual-oscillator synth. Is there any way to get the NS2 to simulate two oscillators set to two different waveforms? I suspect that this is a stupid question and that the answer is no.

[Eisenhans]

Actually, the answer is almost yes! You have two independent single osc synths one in slot A and another in B. The thing is that they do not share any of the envelopes but you could emulate a two osc syntb if all the envelopes are identical in both slots.

[Eisenhans]

Are you saying that if I have slot A's synth set to sawtooth and slot B's synth set to pulse width 25%, that it would achieve the same effect as having a dual-osc synth where osc1 and osc2 are set that way? In other words, in a dual-osc synth, does one of the oscillators modulate the other or are they also simply layered on top of each other (as the NS2's two slots do)?

Also, is the "hard sync" feature (which uses the "hidden" second oscillator) a significant way to imitate a dual-osc synth? For example, when I apply a mod env to a sync'd waveform, it merely sounds like a wah or phaser effect is applied.

Thanks Gustavo!

[anotherscott]

Are you saying that if I have slot A's synth set to sawtooth and slot B's synth set to pulse width 25%, that it would achieve the same effect as having a dual-osc synth where osc1 and osc2 are set that way? In other words, in a dual-osc synth, does one of the oscillators modulate the other or are they also simply layered on top of each other (as the NS2's two slots do)?

Typically, yes, they are just layered (though all kinds of architectures are possible). So yes, layering two one-oscillator sounds on the Nord (one in each slot) is an effective way to create a two-oscillator synth. It's actually more flexible than the average two osc synth in that you can have separate filters, envelopes, modulations, portamento rates, etc. affecting each oscillator, but if you're trying to mimic a typical two-osc synth, you want to be sure all those settings are the same on your two slots. Though also, as alluded to, the Nord has some tricks to simulate 2-osc synth effects even in its "1-osc" slots.

[Eisenhans]

You can set, let's say, the saw waveform, then choose "dtn" which allows you to detune the hidden osc. Now keep the 2nd osc in the same interval as the non-hidden one with the "shape" dial at about 12 o'clock. If you modulate the 'detune' with the LFO (amount ~3.2) and set the LFO to triangle wave and rate ~2.2, then you can hear the typical 2-oscillator beating. I like that much better than the unison/multi effect. It sounds clearer to me.

[jazzystu]

When I recall my old Minimoog D and running the oscillators slightly detuned, it was because you wanted a pseudo-phasing effect. This is what "detune" gives you and it's the variation of pitches which gives you your beat frequency. The Nord is great at it.

I can't think of any time I have ever wanted to detune different waveforms. "Muddy result" are words which spring to mind.

[Eisenhans]

Is there any way to get the NS2 to simulate two oscillators set to two different waveforms? I suspect that this is a stupid question and that the answer is no.

Don't let yourself be fooled!
Using Slot A and B synths may give you two oscillators (for two different waveforms for example) but that's all already! It's a huge difference compared to a real synth with two oscillators.

First of all, what's been mentioned here already, a two oscillator synth has a common filter, amp and modulations like envelopes or LFOs. What's not been told is the fact, you can't change these *common* parameters at the same time for both oszillators if you emulate this architecture by NS2. This is very important playing live. Of course you may change one parameter of every slot by using the morph function, so you can change for instance the cutoff of both slots by using the modwheel. But compared to a two-osc-synth this is just a poor workaround.

The other (imho more important) thing is the behaviour between the two oscillators.
If you set both slots to "synthinit", the two waveforms you hear are phaselocked. However, if you play the same note again and again, the phase will change, but keeps on to be fixed between the two osc, so there is no constant movement in the sound. This may be useful when playing typical *stepsequencer* notes, but the repeat rate is about 4 notes, so this is boring.
There is no real frequency modulation for the osc in a single slot. neither there is a "fine tune" (the "detune" sets only semitones), nor there is LFO frequency modulation.
What you can do is modulate one of the oscillators by using the (common) vibrato, the other not. The disadvantage is you do not have direct access to the vibrato rate (only in the sound menu, which is unsatisfying).
Or you can manually modulate only one osc by the pitch stick to get the typical *fat* sound, but then you loose the usual functionality of the pitch stick.

The method, Mr_-G- describes is not a real frequency modulation, but only simulating the phase effect produced by two slightly detuned oscillators. This works for sawtooth, but doesn't work for triangle or even samples. Using the phase method with rectangle, you only get pulsewidth modulation, which is also far away from the beating of two detuned oscillators.
However, in some cases, to *fatten* the sound, this may work.

cheers,
Bernard

[anotherscott]

neither there is a "fine tune" (the "detune" sets only semitones), nor there is LFO frequency modulation.
...
Using the phase method with rectangle, you only get pulsewidth modulation, which is also far away from the beating of two detuned oscillators.

If that is the effect you are looking for, that particular "two oscillator" effect is available in a single slot via the Unison mode. From the manual:

A .setting .of .1, .2 .or .3 .equals .a .classic .dual .oscillator .de-tuning .effect . with .an .increasing .amount .of .de-tune .between .the .oscillators .
A .setting .of .Multi .1, .2 .and .3 .introduces .a .thicker .multi-voice .de-tuning, .

[Eisenhans]

yes, of course.
I think this is the most wanted effect when people ask for "two oscillators", aside from detune in semitones.
However in case of NS2 unison effect isn't continously adjustable as with fine tunable oscillators. But for me it covers all situations I need.
I hope Eisenhans is satisfied also

Bernhard

[Eisenhans]

The method, Mr_-G- describes is not a real frequency modulation, but only simulating the phase effect produced by two slightly detuned oscillators. This works for sawtooth, but doesn't work for triangle or even samples. Using the phase method with rectangle, you only get pulsewidth modulation, which is also far away from the beating of two detuned oscillators.

I am afraid that it is not quite so. At least in my NS2:
1. The pulse width modulation of the rectangular wave is a achieved via the "ShP" setting.
2. The "dtn" modulation is frequency modulation of the hidden oscillator and it works for all three analog style waveforms.
Try increasing the value of the "LFO shape modulation" so you can hear the 2nd hidden oscillator change its frequency. Sure, only the hidden oscillator gets modulated, but saying that there is no frequency modulation at all is not completely correct.