Live monitor level question

[whytelight]

Hello from Canada:

I've look for an answer but have found similar responses but not the answer I'm looking for.

I'm in a rock band and use my NS88 for organ, piano, and synth. I've programed all my patches for a -6db output. The sound guy says I should not touch my volume level to keep the sound predictable.

1. When the band is all playing together, my level seems fine. But when some players drop out, I seem screaming loud and need to turn down only to turn back up when we're all back in again. Why isn't the bass and guitar player turning their volume knobs up and down?

2. I always need to turn the piano up because I just can't hear myself in the monitor even at a -6db comparable to the organs and synth patches.

3. It is hard explaining to the band that my volume level is dependent upon how hard the drummer hits, how hard the guitar and bass player plucks their strings, and how loud the singer sings. So, I have to adjust my level according to how loud or soft they play. If I don't adjust, then I'm either too loud or too soft....but they just say to leave my volume alone.

Thoughts? Opinions?

Thanks

Lane

[Mr_-G-]

I've programed all my patches for a -6db output.

Can I ask how do you do this? Connect to a mixer and check the VU meters?
I have a couple of patches that sound too low and I am trying to fix this without much of a clue on how this is done properly. I am obviously missing something, and I guess that there must be a psychoacoustic effect that makes some sounds more prominent than others too. Thanks!

[RedLeo]

Volume in a mix is a lot more complicated than it looks.

The sound guy says I should not touch my volume level to keep the sound predictable.

If only it were that simple. You should keep your actual physical volume control at the same level so that you are sending him a consistent *overall* level, but that does not mean that all your individual sounds should be programmed at the same level all the time. You'll need louder and quieter sounds depending on the song, the arrangement, what the other players are doing, what sounds they're using and so on.

I've programed all my patches for a -6db output.

Unfortunately, that does not in any way mean that all your sounds are going to be the same apparent loudness in the mix or on stage - as you're beginning to discover. The level on a meter is no guarantee of what volume it will actually sound at - again it will depend heavily on what the individual sound actually is - some sounds cut through better than others, and at the same time some of your sounds will be masked to a lesser or greater extent by the other instruments in the band.

One way to go about things is to use one of your sounds as a reference level. When everyone, including you, agrees that that certain sound (for example, your main piano sound) is exactly right (for a given song), then adjust the program levels of your other sounds until they seem right, without touching your main volume knob. This will take some time, maybe even weeks, before it all comes right.

You should do this on a louder song, because it's always possible to program other sounds to be quieter. If you set your reference sound on a quieter song, you may not be able to program some sounds to be loud enough. Spinal Tap can go to 11, your keyboard can't. Also, don't use your loudest sound (eg your organ sound) to do this otherwise, again, you may not be able to turn a quieter sound (eg your piano sound) up loud enough to be heard.

If you don't use any form of volume pedal, then you will probably need to use your master volume control to turn some sounds down for quieter songs eg ballads, but remember to turn it back up to its exact normal level when you are done, to keep your sound engineer happy.

It is hard explaining to the band that my volume level is dependent upon how hard the drummer hits, how hard the guitar and bass player plucks their strings, and how loud the singer sings. So, I have to adjust my level according to how loud or soft they play. If I don't adjust, then I'm either too loud or too soft....but they just say to leave my volume alone.

Hmmm... two possibilities here. One is that your band mates are idiots. The other possibility is that you suffer from "rock band keyboard player" syndrome. Often, keyboard players in rock bands are simply drowned out when everyone else is playing loudly - and they don't care, *they're* having a good time. So when you're playing a quieter song, you don't need to turn down, because you were never loud enough in the first place.

Actually, there is a third possibility as well. It could be that you are not able to judge your volume levels accurately - for any number of possible reasons - with the result that you are not getting it right. So it could be that they'd prefer you to leave things alone, rather than hear your levels yo-yo-ing up and down. You may simply be over-compensating how loud and quiet you need to be. In this case, you may need to take some time to experiment with your monitoring until what sounds right to you also sounds right to everyone else.

One last thing. It could be an idea to have a quiet chat (not during rehearsal) with someone - your engineer or a band member - whose judgement you trust, to get a better understanding of what seems to be wrong as far as they are concerned. Having several people hurl opinions at you during rehearsal tends not to be very productive in terms of figuring out what's actually going on.

Good luck!

[FunKey]

Wow, that's a very detailed and helpful description, especially for a relative noob like me. This thread makes me think there should be a "general keyboard advice" section in this forum.

Just to throw in my 2 cents: From my very limited experience, it seems that I could adjust my volume level rather well (and store my patches accordingly) if I could listen to the entire mix instead of hearing everyone else directly from their own amps etc. But if I don't even hear everyone else equally well, I don't see a chance to get it right every time. I guess it becomes easier at bigger venues with more sophisticated monitoring. Is that true, or just wishful thinking? In any case, doesn't this mean that rehearsals will always be different from gigs in this respect?

Somewhat relatedly, I used to have many problems with organ levels controlled by a swell pedal, until I set up individual morphs for each song instead, with limited ranges. Now my volume is at least more consistent. That doesn't mean it is always correct, of course, but that's not something I have full control over anyway, right?

[rb4u1]

If you play large areas your speaker/amp should be more of a monitor for you. I have always thought that a soundman should use compression on the keyboard channel so that the keyboardist can ride the volume pedal without affecting the main mix. In reality, I'm not sure this would work. I don't see how you can be expected to play softer or louder without changing your volume/output. A piano probably doesn't have the dynamic range required to play in a Rock setting.
Another factor that I had not considered is that as a set or night wears on you may want to turn up to compensate for your ears closing up as the gig progresses. Although some of this is conjecture you have raised an interesting point.
Good Luck,
BB

[thedberg]

This is an important topic!

First: your sound guy is plain WRONG . Of course, your level can't be constant, it has to vary with the context. Our job is to make music, not provide a pre-specified electrical current.

Most of the time though, it's not so smart to tell people you work with that they are plain wrong. Tends to lower the mood on the gig . So, we have to prove them wrong instead. Therefore the question is: how can we make sure that we output good, musical levels so that no one even thinks of complaining?

I suspect there are many ways of achieving this. My way is to try to have monitoring that allows me to get a reasonable picture of the overall music. To do this I need to keep my monitor level down (yes, down). This makes my personal "feeling" a bit worse sometimes, but it allows me to hear the other guys even if we don't do large stages. Also, and really important, I have a monitor system with a frequency response similar to a PA (currently HK Lucas Nano 300). Most amps on the market have a really, really different response than a PA (especially ...shudder... guitar amps).

Last week, I asked a sound guy about my levels. He said that he rarely even touches my faders. So there must be some merit to my tricks.

[Frantz]

1. When the band is all playing together, my level seems fine. But when some players drop out, I seem screaming loud and need to turn down only to turn back up when we're all back in again. Why isn't the bass and guitar player turning their volume knobs up and down?

Hi,
I got the opposite situation, I was not heard on a record.
Heard from one listening point, one of us is louder than he should be.
New place, new setup : I try to get used to my new listening point, to figure out how loud I should hear each bandmate from where I am.
I try to figure out what I should hear behind my instrument when the audience listening point is ok, and keep everything balanced.
While we play, to make volume adjustments, I can turn the master volume, between 1/2 and 3/4, organ volume is bound to a control pedal, and I use the compressor. That's on reason I love this Nord Stage kb : the global compressor, it reveals details
Any remark is welcome.
Cheers.
Frantz.