Updated impression of C2D - a near-fatal flaw

Nordstrom2 · Post by **Nordstrom2** » 26 Jun 2012, 06:08

I stand by my earlier post on impressions of the C2 versus the C2D, with one major exception, which I am now discovering.

When you pull up a preset on the C2D, you cannot tweak that preset using the drawbars unless you hold down the selected Preset key in the panel to the left of the manual. To do so, you have to take both hands off the keyboard - using one to hold the Preset key down and then adjusting a drawbar with the other - which makes the drawbars completely useless in changing the sound live in real time. But that is really the major reason to buy a C2D versus the C2!

It is technically true that there is no connection between the presets and the drawbars in a real Hammond made 50+ years ago, which I have to believe was the "logic" behind this programming decision. But it is also true that no one I know has ever used the preset keys on a real Hammond. When playing the Beast, you learn to use the drawbars alone.

The C2 and the C1 work exactly as I would expect in today's age - the preset calls up a registration and you can then quickly tweak any drawbar to your heart's content in real time by using the up and down buttons below the drawbar, using the other hand to play (often holding notes to focus attention on the changing sound). So you get the benefit of a quick preset and also the benefit of real time adjustment to the sound. Perfect. That is not the case on the C2D!

The bottom line is that the presets on the C2D are just as useless as they are on a real Hammond, which totally defeats the benefits of the drawbars when using any of the presets. The drawbars are only live when you select the A or B drawbar buttons, or if you hold the preset key down before you adjust them.

I'm still stunned. So I now have to assess whether this is a problem that Nord will fix quickly with an OS update, or whether I should just return the C2D and keep my C2.

flmc59 · Post by **flmc59** » 26 Jun 2012, 07:30

How would you like the behaviour of the presets to be in relation to the the drawbars.
Could you describe the workflow you would like to see.

Personally I do not find this a major issue since I use the presets in the old fasion way - as fixed presets.

/Frederick

flmc59 · Post by **flmc59** » 26 Jun 2012, 07:30

Nordstrom2 · Post by **Nordstrom2** » 26 Jun 2012, 15:31

Personally, I much prefer the way the C1 and C2 are set up. The preset calls up a registration and its appropriate effects. The physical position of the drawbars is not connected to the preset registration (the lights on the C1/C2 make that possible but the physical drawbars on the C2D make it impossible, which is fine).
But I would like any drawbar that is moved to adjust the preset accordingly, jumping to whatever position the drawbar is in. That lets me change the sound on the fly, regardless of whether I start with the drawbar panels active, or a preset active. You can make a change to the preset registration in the C2D if you hold down the preset button, but that forces me to take me hands off the keyboard, which I don't want to do in a live situation.
Example: I pull up a preset and begin to play in a live situation. Assume that it has no 1' drawbar in the preset. As I get to the chorus of the song, I want to add a bit of 1' drawbar to that preset to give the sound a little more top end. I then want to remove that 1' sound as I get back into a verse. Since I need all the hands I can use (and then some) to play and adjust the drawbar, I want to be able to do that without having to hold the Preset key down. I don't want to save the preset, so I'm fine having the sound revert back to the original preset when I change to another. I just want to be able to change the sound on the fly in a live situation, even if I start from a preset.
Does that make sense? I definitely don't think I would be alone in that preference, but if others want to weigh in, that would be great.

Nordstrom2 · Post by **Nordstrom2** » 26 Jun 2012, 15:39

The other big improvement on the C2D for me would be for it to behave like the Stage 2 in revealing the underlying programming. On the Stage 2, if you hold the Shift key and then move any of the physical controls that are not already displayed with the lights, it shows the program position for that control in the display. Terrific benefit for those of us who want to know how a factory preset is programmed.
On the C2D, it would be terrific if that same kind of feature worked to reveal the underlying registrations for each preset (as well as the programmed settings for overdrive, etc.). Hold the shift key down and move any drawbar that has the LED lit above it (indicating that it is active), and the programmed position of that drawbar in the preset is displayed.
Alternatively, Nord could just publish a spreadsheet of some kind that has the registrations and effects settings for the factory presets. Users who just pick a preset and play won't care, but the C2D is targeted to people like me who really do care about registrations. I want to know what the presets are programmed to. Easily visible on the C1 and C2, and any other organ that has a display. But hidden on the new C2D.

flmc59 · Post by **flmc59** » 26 Jun 2012, 17:27

I agree with you on preset issue
Every time you hit preset it preloads with the saved setting but the drawbars are still active. Question is if it should be the a or b set pr both.
If you want to revert you just hit the preset again

Nordstrom2 · Post by **Nordstrom2** » 26 Jun 2012, 18:27

Good question on the active drawbar set. Seems to me that the active drawbars should be the set that is active in the preset (denoted by the single LED above each active drawbar). I think that is A in all or almost all of the presets, but I don't have enough experience so far to know for sure.
Agree with you on the revert issue. If you want to cancel any changes you make to any drawbar settings, just hit the preset again and it reloads the saved settings. Physical drawbars are out of the picture until one or more is moved, in which case the new physical position, for those drawbars only, overrides the preset. The saved setting are still valid for drawbars that have not been touched. That's the way almost every clone I know works these days, including all the Nord products that have the lit drawbars. Why it is different on the C2D is the mystery, at least to me.

Boyke · Post by **Boyke** » 26 Jun 2012, 21:47

The solution would be a new version of the C2D with preset-interconnected motorized faders. If you change a preset, the motorized faders immediately follow in the preprogrammed position and can be moved from there to change the sound of this preset, with or without changing its program.
/Boyke

DanielD71 · Post by **DanielD71** » 26 Jun 2012, 22:27

I had an XK3C (sold it in order to buy my new C2). Nord could add to the c2d display, your preset setting per program, I had this on my xk3c, I could see by default the name of the program or the drawbar settings.
So, before I started a song, I was able to see my drawbar settings and modify my physical drawbar to these settings. In a manner of seconds, my physical drawbars were identical to my preset.

Regards,

Post by **dazzjazz** » 27 Jun 2012, 02:58

Boyke wrote:The solution would be a new version of the C2D with preset-interconnected motorized faders. If you change a preset, the motorized faders immediately follow in the preprogrammed position and can be moved from there to change the sound of this preset, with or without changing its program.
/Boyke

And then the price goes through the roof!

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