Pairing a Nord Piano 5 73 with Nord Stage 3 Compact?

[JVSalazar]

I currently have a NS3C and am considering getting a Nord Piano 5 73 for a relatively portable dual board setup. The reason why I'm looking at the NP5 73 is that I want a weighted action to play piano parts, and so far it is the most portable keyboard I've found with an action that I enjoy. I already have a CP73, but to be blunt, the velocity curve of the keybed just sucks and has very little dynamic range no matter which touch setting I use, especially when using the MIDI out to trigger the Nord pianos. As much as I like a few of the sounds on there that the Nord doesn't have, I'm probably going to get rid of because of this.

My question now is that if a NP5 worth it, given that I already have a NS3C. Is there anything that the NP5 can do that the NS3C can't, functionality wise? The only use I can foresee is that I can add more XL pianos on the NP5 that don't fit on my NS3C, but given the price point, I don't know if just that benefit would be worth it. Although now I suppose the NP5 could be used as a backup if my NS3C fails on stage, or I could use it in cases where I only need a single board for gigs and would prefer a weighted action over the NS3C functionality. But when using both together I don't know if the NP5 would be anything more than purely a MIDI controller.

Maybe there's another option for a relatively portable weighted keyboard that I could use to trigger Nord sounds. I don't enjoy playing TP100 keybeds though, so most boards with that keybed are out of the question for me.

[anotherscott]

Maybe there's another option for a relatively portable weighted keyboard that I could use to trigger Nord sounds.

I seem to remember people having good results with Casio PX5S and maybe Kawai ES110. But also, make sure you have the latest update loaded ito your CP73, it provides more velocity curve options, and they may affect the external as well as internal sounds.

[JVSalazar]

But also, make sure you have the latest update loaded ito your CP73, it provides more velocity curve options, and they may affect the external as well as internal sounds.

I did indeed update my CP73 firmware to the latest one. Unfortunately the new velocity settings don't apply externally - and even then I had a hard time finding a velocity setting that played well with the internal sounds too.

[Valpurgis]

There is one point that nobody other than me seem to bother about, and I find it strange: Triple sensor keybeds make it easier to restrike the sound without lifting the key above the upper sensor. The Nord Stage 3 Compact will not benefit of this when controlled by a triple sensor keyboard. If you combine a NS3C with a NP5 you will have the triple sensor benefit when playing the the pianos of the NP5 directly.

[JVSalazar]

There is one point that nobody other than me seem to bother about, and I find it strange: Triple sensor keybeds make it easier to restrike the sound without lifting the key above the upper sensor. The Nord Stage 3 Compact will not benefit of this when controlled by a triple sensor keyboard. If you combine a NS3C with a NP5 you will have the triple sensor benefit when playing the the pianos of the NP5 directly.

Why would this be the case? Wouldn't a note being activated by the triple sensor just translate to a regular MIDI note that could be processed universally? Or is triple sensor MIDI data inherently different from notes generated from a non-triple sensor?

(But in any case, I am not a classical musician with a significant need to quickly retrigger a single note repeatedly, so the triple sensor wouldn't be too much of a benefit in my case - unless there is something else that the triple sensor provides that I am unaware of.)

[Valpurgis]

When activating a note via midi this is done by sending a command called Note On associated with a key number and the velocity value which represents the speed(force) the key was pressed. When relasing the key the midi controller sends Midi Off.

Playing the same key in succession on a two sensor keyboard will result in Midi On, Midi Off, Midi On, Midi Off. You will here two distinct tone silenced between them.

With a triple sensor keybed it is possible to retrigger the same key from the middle sensor and in this case the tone will not be abrupted but continue to sustain through the second key strike. A typical three sensor keyboard will in this case send Midi On, Midi On, Midi Off, Midi Off.

The problem is that the NS3C does not understand this correctly when received via midi. Nord has not implemented triple sensor action when controlled from an external source and my last example will only trigger the note a single time not twice. Sorry if this got complicated!

[FZiegler]

@Valpurgis: The thing with the triple sensor keyboard doesn't seem to be true overall. We heard more than once that Nord handles its triple sensor MIDI commands differently than e.g. Kawai. While you are right for other brands, Nord triple sensor keyboards seem to send Note-On, Note-Off, Note-On, Note-Off even from a triple sensor keyboard. And seem to interpret them in a way that sounds like fast repetition. If I understood right - didn't test it. This would only work from a NP 4/5 or Grand.

But I have a totally different proposition for you, @JVSalazar: Keep your CP73 and connect it to the NS3C via a MIDI Velocity Converter. I do it that way and got good results. Is much less expensive. The power for the velocity converter comes from the Yamaha - but only if the MIDI jack provides 5 V, doesn't work with the newer 3.3 V standard.

[Valpurgis]

@Valpurgis: The thing with the triple sensor keyboard doesn't seem to be true overall. We heard more than once that Nord handles its triple sensor MIDI commands differently than e.g. Kawai. While you are right for other brands, Nord triple sensor keyboards seem to send Note-On, Note-Off, Note-On, Note-Off even from a triple sensor keyboard. And seem to interpret them in a way that sounds like fast repetition. If I understood right - didn't test it. This would only work from a NP 4/5 or Grand.

I had discussions with Nord about this a couple of years ago based upon my test with a Kawai MP11. They wanted me to send a midi file from the Kawai to verify because they thought the NS3C would handle it correctly. After testing they concluded they did not handle it but would not promise to if or when they would work on an adaptation. Maybe it is a complicated task due to i) as you say it does not really excist a standard for midi-implementation of triple sensor action or ii) the NS3C also have an organ and a synth engine which may be affected by the triple sensor midi-stream.

I have tried to find out how VST’s like PianoTeq handle this from different controllers. Kawai also have the VPC1 which is a dedicated midi-controller. But not much talk or discussions on this anywhere. I find it strange that this seem to be a theme of little or no interest. At least the Kawai MP11 itself accept triple sensor when routing midi out to midi in with local midi off. But soon as I connect to the NS3C the retriggering notes will not sound on the Nord only the initial note.

Is it only me that prefer triple sensor action? Sorry to end up slightly off topic

[cphollis]

Don't know nothin' bout no triple sensors, sorry. I save all that delicate stuff for a real acoustic piano, and use digitals for gigging.

I use a NP4 underneath my NS3C as a weighted controller (no sound generated) and have been doing so now for quite a while. I love it. The action is pleasant, the velocity curves match perfectly, and it looks great. Yes, I could have probably done OK with some other weighted controller, but also I use the NP4 by itself for piano-centric gigs. Not to mention that I at least have something to limp through a gig if the NS3C should ever have a bad day.

When it's time to replace the NP4, it'll most likely be the NP5 as you are considering. While it might seem a shame to use such a powerful engine as solely a MIDI controller, I'll likely still be doing gigs where I take one or the other instead of both as I mostly do now.

So, yeah, I'd do a NP5 that way.

[JVSalazar]

@Valpurgis: The thing with the triple sensor keyboard doesn't seem to be true overall. We heard more than once that Nord handles its triple sensor MIDI commands differently than e.g. Kawai. While you are right for other brands, Nord triple sensor keyboards seem to send Note-On, Note-Off, Note-On, Note-Off even from a triple sensor keyboard. And seem to interpret them in a way that sounds like fast repetition. If I understood right - didn't test it. This would only work from a NP 4/5 or Grand.

But I have a totally different proposition for you, @JVSalazar: Keep your CP73 and connect it to the NS3C via a MIDI Velocity Converter. I do it that way and got good results. Is much less expensive. The power for the velocity converter comes from the Yamaha - but only if the MIDI jack provides 5 V, doesn't work with the newer 3.3 V standard.

This is actually a very interesting solution. It's a little expensive where I am from, but like you said it much cheaper than buying a Nord Piano 5, so I will consider it. Do you just set your CP73 touch to normal and adjust everything on the velocity converter? I'm thinking if I set it to wide then further adjusting it on the converter would give even more dynamic range. I think I'll try connecting my CP73 to a DAW and find a velocity converter on my computer to see if I can find a good curve first before buying the MIDI box - hopefully it would translate over to the actual MIDI converter box if I do end up buying it.

Don't know nothin' bout no triple sensors, sorry. I save all that delicate stuff for a real acoustic piano, and use digitals for gigging.

I use a NP4 underneath my NS3C as a weighted controller (no sound generated) and have been doing so now for quite a while. I love it. The action is pleasant, the velocity curves match perfectly, and it looks great. Yes, I could have probably done OK with some other weighted controller, but also I use the NP4 by itself for piano-centric gigs. Not to mention that I at least have something to limp through a gig if the NS3C should ever have a bad day.

When it's time to replace the NP4, it'll most likely be the NP5 as you are considering. While it might seem a shame to use such a powerful engine as solely a MIDI controller, I'll likely still be doing gigs where I take one or the other instead of both as I mostly do now.

So, yeah, I'd do a NP5 that way.

Yeah, I'm thinking now it won't totally be a waste. I've come to realize that most other keyboards paired with a NS3C would probably be used very little if at all in that dual board setup anyway - there's just not much other boards can do that the Nord can't already do better.