RE: Setting Consistent Volume Levels

[analogika]

In my experience, if you set your levels using just your ears through headphones, the end results will be miles off! Even playing the synth through a mixer or Cubase (in your bedroom) produces undesirable conclusions.

The terrible truth is that no matter how well you've balanced everything, every PA and every room will sound different. So that beautiful Grand that you've adjusted to blend perfectly with the other programs in your set is going to really BITE people in the face on that gig in the hotel lobby with the shitty Bose sound system and the reflective glass paneling surrounding the stage.

The only way to prepare for this is to try and play back extremely familiar productions before sound check to get a feel for what the PA and room will do to your sound. (Which, of course, is what you hear travelling FoH engineers do before every gig.)

90% of my playing is in small or medium sized bars, or else in cafes (so there is no house-mixer or PA system). On circa 10/15% is there an actual sound engineer; and with not wishing to sound disrespectful, I would say that many of the engineers are not trainedas such. Funnily enough, a trio performance in December was recorded through the house-mixer and I'm waiting for the guy to Drop-box it to me . . .

That's ideal and should give you a pretty good idea of how your sounds work in context! Excellent!

Do you yourself use your second method where you have your performances recorded (minus-one)?

For one project, the initial prep relied on the band supplying complete recordings of a gig, with the entire band on one track, and the keyboard stem a separate track.
Stuff that I've added over time since then has been eyeballing levels and lots of communication with FoH.

For another project, I do most of the programming and adjusting during rehearsals, so it's already done within the context of the band. (This, incidentally, is the greatest thing about the Stage: I can usually whip up something that everybody is happy with within two minutes or so DURING REHEARSAL. No other (digital) keyboard has ever allowed me to do that! Even a band I work with that regards "imitations" with absolute scorn has approvingly accepted the Stage 3 as a "real" instrument in its own right. I suppose the fact that I know my way around it and freely blend and morph synths, organs, pianos, clavichords and integrate effects helps a lot. )

One thing I have never understood with (some) sound engineers is that they seem to insist on mic-ing everything up (inc. drums!) in a room which only holds (say) 45 people! I inform them I carry two Yamaha DXR powered speakers, AND that I am naturally a 'loud' player. And so, half way through the first song everything starts feeding-back!

This makes sense from a "sound reinforcement" standpoint.

The idea of FoH in small rooms is to balance the sound. So while the drums may be loud enough in their entirety, the kick may not carry across the room. Or the aforementioned glass paneling may mean that the cymbals overpower everything. So having the ability to gently add toms, kick, and snare back into the mix to balance the drums is important.

[monsterjazzlicks]

So, I'm happy my multiple amateur answers provoked you, analogika, to jump in!

But there is still one point I'd beg your answer about. My point of view was: Get your own monitoring/stage sound right, the rest is for the FoH guy. It looks like you see it differently. (Of course my situation in a big band with a lot of natural sound around may be quite different from Paul's trio setting.)

[analogika]

I have been told by multiple sound engineers that I’m apparently extremely uncomplicated to do monitor for. :shrugs:

My approach is quite simple: I need to hear everything, more or less. I adjust my levels during sound check so that I get a feel for how I sit in the mix. Sometimes this just means turning up the in-ears (in-ears whenever possible!) a little louder, so I can hear myself, sometimes I’ll just turn up the Nord a bit. Sometimes I just need to accept that I’m a little louder than I hear myself, so I need to hold back a little.

Everything else — where I stick out, where I briefly flare up for a lick, where I merely support, is a matter of programming levels, playing dynamics, and using the swell pedal.

[monsterjazzlicks]

Hey Eric,

Well it sounds like you have to be pretty on the ball with your patch-changes. I don't envy you; I used to have to do all of that in the past (bar 'loops'), and play bass-pedals with my left-foot!

When you mention the range of sounds you have to cover, do you mean these are instruments (say, a Juno 106) which you have sampled and loaded onto your Nord; or do you mean you carry lots of 'real' hardware instruments with you?

Do you have a You Tube video of your band with you playing in it, please? I would be very interested to see.

Did you perform your Normalizing in a DAW, or in the Nord Sampler Editor (I think it can carry out this task).

A "Ventilator" - Gee, I can't say I have ever heard of one of those before?

My Electro 6 only has two outputs - but that's all I have ever used my whole life, so it really makes no difference to be honest. What you have not experienced you don't miss!

As soon as you activate the 'Drive' function you get an immediate boost to your preset; but I don't feel it suits every single type of timbre. Hence I am more inclined to use 'Compression'. 'EQ' is something I have not experimented with too much because I feel very often it needs to be reset every gig. Not so much because of the acoustics of the venue, but rather the instrumentation of that particular performance. For instance, on some gigs it's solo-cocktail piano, others it's a jazz trio, or an octet (the latter two I run myself). But more recently I have been rehearsing once a week with a couple of local big-bands and the piano sounds can get really lost, as you can imagine.

NB - I play Jazz music, if you had not already guessed from my site-name.

Much appreaciated.

[monsterjazzlicks]

The terrible truth is that no matter how well you've balanced everything, every PA and every room will sound different. So that beautiful Grand that you've adjusted to blend perfectly with the other programs in your set is going to really BITE people in the face on that gig in the hotel lobby with the shitty Bose sound system and the reflective glass paneling surrounding the stage.

The only way to prepare for this is to try and play back extremely familiar productions before sound check to get a feel for what the PA and room will do to your sound. (Which, of course, is what you hear travelling FoH engineers do before every gig.)

For one project, the initial prep relied on the band supplying complete recordings of a gig, with the entire band on one track, and the keyboard stem a separate track. Stuff that I've added over time since then has been eyeballing levels and lots of communication with FoH.

For another project, I do most of the programming and adjusting during rehearsals, so it's already done within the context of the band. (This, incidentally, is the greatest thing about the Stage: I can usually whip up something that everybody is happy with within two minutes or so DURING REHEARSAL. No other (digital) keyboard has ever allowed me to do that! Even a band I work with that regards "imitations" with absolute scorn has approvingly accepted the Stage 3 as a "real" instrument in its own right. I suppose the fact that I know my way around it and freely blend and morph synths, organs, pianos, clavichords and integrate effects helps a lot. )

The idea of FoH in small rooms is to balance the sound. So while the drums may be loud enough in their entirety, the kick may not carry across the room. Or the aforementioned glass paneling may mean that the cymbals overpower everything. So having the ability to gently add toms, kick, and snare back into the mix to balance the drums is important.

Hi analogika,

Well, actually Piano is the most difficult one to get right, I have found. For me the biggest factor seems to be whether or not there is a bass-player present. Hence, I 90% of the time use the 'Royal Grand 3D' within the 'live' panel of the Nord. It's pretty pointless saving it!

Yes, all venues are different in every possible way: reflections, surfaces, amount of customers (usually ZERO to my own jazz performances! lol). Before lockdown most engineers used to place a hanging-mic drooping over my two Yamaha DXR speakers. But I never liked this for a few reasons. So I'm now going to go down the route of buying or or two DI-boxes (I ALWAYS play in stereo, btw).

Everyone went mad crazy about Bose in the late 1980's. I have never liked their sound. They always sound too harsh on the top-end, even piercing. And now people are buying those 'Pole' PA's which is like a stick-speaker and a bass-bin!

It is worth mentioning that most Duo bookings are in venues with extremely limited space (esp. at Xmas when you have a giant Xmas tree and decorations to compete for real-estate with!). So you have to just plonk your gear where you can fit it, of which is usually a very unpractical position).

The problem with recording gigs it that (discounting the 'balancing' issue) it makes you realize just how terrible your playing really is!

I have never, or been asked to, provide an engineer with a pre-recording of my band or playing before. I suppose it's down to what circle of work you do. I don't see the point if you are only solo or a duo - in which case it's unlikely there will be an engineer involved.

OK, I see your point regarding small venues employing engineers. You often get restaurants which are 'L-shaped', or even have 'two levels' of seating areas. If they are tucked away out of the sweet-spot then all they might here is the Vocals and Bass!

I agree over the larger Nord keyboards with you; I had a Nord Stage Classic about 15 years ago and although I dislike 88 note keyboards (esp. if they have a heavy action) I really enjoyed my time with it. The user-interface is great. My only dislikes were the design and positioning of the Pitch-bend and Mod-Wheel. The 'memory' was also quite poor, but it was a very good keyboard overall. Hence I have stuck with them and replaced it with the Electro 6.

Many thanks.

[monsterjazzlicks]

But there is still one point I'd beg your answer about. My point of view was: Get your own monitoring/stage sound right, the rest is for the FoH guy. It looks like you see it differently. (Of course my situation in a big band with a lot of natural sound around may be quite different from Paul's trio setting.)

FZ,

If you are playing with a big-band it is likely we share similar issues. No disrespect here but I have found Guitarists can be one of them for a variety of reasons (too many to mention); but this can be partly blamed on the (musical) Arranger/Composer who has no idea of how to write for the instrument (eps. DRUMS!!!).

btw - which Piano(s) do you use with the big-band, and do you choose the 'Mono' option (running into two amps)?

Cheers.

[analogika]

Yes, all venues are different in every possible way: reflections, surfaces, amount of customers (usually ZERO to my own jazz performances! lol). Before lockdown most engineers used to place a hanging-mic drooping over my two Yamaha DXR speakers. But I never liked this for a few reasons. So I'm now going to go down the route of buying or or two DI-boxes (I ALWAYS play in stereo, btw).

Stereo DI boxes exist.

Palmer stereo DI seems to be the standard. Radial if you're willing to splurge.

The problem with recording gigs it that (discounting the 'balancing' issue) it makes you realize just how terrible your playing really is!

Oh boy, tell me about it!

I have never, or been asked to, provide an engineer with a pre-recording of my band or playing before. I suppose it's down to what circle of work you do. I don't see the point if you are only solo or a duo - in which case it's unlikely there will be an engineer involved.

I meant that I was provided with recordings of the band and my predecessor's keyboard tracks for preparation. I took over the post as systems operator and live keyboardist in a well-established and rather complex tribute band three years ago and needed to rebuild the previous live set with my own gear (I haven't mentioned it here before, because it's based on MainStage, not Nord).

[monsterjazzlicks]

Hey Eric,

Well it sounds like you have to be pretty on the ball with your patch-changes. I don't envy you; I used to have to do all of that in the past (bar 'loops'), and play bass-pedals with my left-foot!

When you mention the range of sounds you have to cover, do you mean these are instruments (say, a Juno 106) which you have sampled and loaded onto your Nord; or do you mean you carry lots of 'real' hardware instruments with you?

Do you have a You Tube video of your band with you playing in it, please? I would be very interested to see.

Did you perform your Normalizing in a DAW, or in the Nord Sampler Editor (I think it can carry out this task).

A "Ventilator" - Gee, I can't say I have ever heard of one of those before?

My Electro 6 only has two outputs - but that's all I have ever used my whole life, so it really makes no difference to be honest. What you have not experienced you don't miss!

As soon as you activate the 'Drive' function you get an immediate boost to your preset; but I don't feel it suits every single type of timbre. Hence I am more inclined to use 'Compression'. 'EQ' is something I have not experimented with too much because I feel very often it needs to be reset every gig. Not so much because of the acoustics of the venue, but rather the instrumentation of that particular performance. For instance, on some gigs it's solo-cocktail piano, others it's a jazz trio, or an octet (the latter two I run myself). But more recently I have been rehearsing once a week with a couple of local big-bands and the piano sounds can get really lost, as you can imagine.

NB - I play Jazz music, if you had not already guessed from my site-name.

Much appreaciated.

Hi Paul!

I'll share a couple of videos here for you to see the kinds of things I do. I use only a Nord Stage 3 and no other instruments for my gig. The Ventilator is used for Leslie simulation on my organ channel. I have used Vents since about 2010 and it's the best sound other than a real Leslie. I do have a real Hammond and Leslie in my music room at home, but those never leave the house.

As for "normalizing" my volumes, I do all of this within the NS3 itself, just a matter of adjusting volumes per Program and each part in the Program. After years of programming a NS2 and NS3, this is part of my process when I'm working on new sounds.

Here's a thread I posted on this forum that shows one of the set lists for my '80s and classic rock cover band, plus several videos of me demonstrating the Programs I've created, all within the NS3. One of my main points in sharing this was to show how deep the instrument is and how one can use a single keyboard to cover a wide variety of sounds.

nord-stage-3-programs-ns3p-ns3pb-files- ... 21504.html

Here's a video compilation of my original ska/reggae/world beat/rock band that toured heavily in the '80s and '90s. We do annual reunion shows and just had a really nice one the day after Christmas at the same venue as this video from a few years ago. This gives you an idea of how I play and move around on stage. In addition to these bands, I also am in a tribute to The Clash and sit in with other groups, all of this mostly for fun as I gave up full time touring a few decades ago.



On the topic of DI boxes, I recommend using Radial. I was using a Stereo JDI for years with a variety of different mixers in front of the DI. Now I use a Radial Key Largo in my rehearsal rig and a Radial KL-8 in my gig rig. They are the best in my opinion.

Thanks,
Eric

[monsterjazzlicks]

Palmer stereo DI seems to be the standard. Radial if you're willing to splurge.

I meant that I was provided with recordings of the band and my predecessor's keyboard tracks for preparation. I took over the post as systems operator and live keyboardist in a well-established and rather complex tribute band three years ago and needed to rebuild the previous live set with my own gear (I haven't mentioned it here before, because it's based on MainStage, not Nord).

analogika,

Well funnily enough I had kinda' boiled it down to the Redial Stereo DI boxes. They definitely look the best to me (there's no point in buying cheap for a piece of gear that is so crucial to your sound). I mean, I would never consider Behringer!

I would rather take a couple of DI boxes out with me than a mixing-desk.

OK, I see now. So you emulated what the original keyboard player in the band did. That's a lot of work. For the past 15 years, I refuse to join a band unless all of the music is written out for me. It's just too much hard work otherwise, and I have stupidly done it in the past.

Cheers.

[monsterjazzlicks]

I'll share a couple of videos here for you to see the kinds of things I do. I use only a Nord Stage 3 and no other instruments for my gig. The Ventilator is used for Leslie simulation on my organ channel. I have used Vents since about 2010 and it's the best sound other than a real Leslie. I do have a real Hammond and Leslie in my music room at home, but those never leave the house.

As for "normalizing" my volumes, I do all of this within the NS3 itself, just a matter of adjusting volumes per Program and each part in the Program. After years of programming a NS2 and NS3, this is part of my process when I'm working on new sounds.

Here's a thread I posted on this forum that shows one of the set lists for my '80s and classic rock cover band, plus several videos of me demonstrating the Programs I've created, all within the NS3. One of my main points in sharing this was to show how deep the instrument is and how one can use a single keyboard to cover a wide variety of sounds.

nord-stage-3-programs-ns3p-ns3pb-files- ... 21504.html

Here's a video compilation of my original ska/reggae/world beat/rock band that toured heavily in the '80s and '90s. We do annual reunion shows and just had a really nice one the day after Christmas at the same venue as this video from a few years ago. This gives you an idea of how I play and move around on stage. In addition to these bands, I also am in a tribute to The Clash and sit in with other groups, all of this mostly for fun as I gave up full time touring a few decades ago.



On the topic of DI boxes, I recommend using Radial. I was using a Stereo JDI for years with a variety of different mixers in front of the DI. Now I use a Radial Key Largo in my rehearsal rig and a Radial KL-8 in my gig rig. They are the best in my opinion.

Hi Eric,

So you mean one of these?:

https://www.dv247.com/en_GB/GBP/Neo-Ins ... s6EALw_wcB

I have honestly never heard of them before. So you don't use the Leslie Sim. on the Nord? Is it really that much better?

OK, I see; so setting you levels is performed entirely on the Nord. You do it at home and then tweak it before the gig (if it's a new preset)?

Is that you (wearing glasses) playing the Nord standing-up? Is the singer not boiling-hot wearing that thick black coat!

The second video is of very good quality, I'd say. I was surprised you had a trumpeter in the band. To help him sound less stark, did you ever consider doubling the brass-lines with him? I'm sure you could have created an appropriate preset.

Thanks a lot for the DI help. I am pleased to learn you also favour Radial. Is this the one you use (bloody hell, they don't come cheap!):

https://www.radialeng.com/product/kl-8

Thanks,

Paul