New piano needed for live blues/rock

[Rusty Mike]

... and the eternal debate rages on!

Upfront caveat: I don’t play rock or blues so I’m not 100% qualified to offer a solution for that context. That said, here are a few thoughts:

I also play a Stage 2EX 76, plugged directly one or two QSC K8.2’s, depending on the situation. When using a single speaker, I find I get the best results by connecting both 1 and 2 outputs into the two inputs on the speaker. I also own an original K10 and may use that for outdoor gigs, but take the same approach. Bear in mind that the K’s throw sound very well, and the sound from 20 or 30 feet away is different (and arguably better) than what you hear from 5 feet away.

I rely a lot on EQ and am rather dynamic about it; each space has its own personality and I tweak the EQ to accommodate that. Reverb is a big thing as well; too much and your piano gets lost in its own ambience. Keep it either very low or off, and if you do use it, use a brighter sounding reverb. Stay away from the Halls.

Sometimes a small mixer improves your control as sound quality as well. Something like a Yamaha MG or Mackie VLZ series.

On the rare occasion I need a piano that cuts, I go to the Silver Grand. It has a clear top end without being to crisp and retains some body.

A few months ago, I saw a video put out by Bonner’s Music about creating the “Elton John” piano sound. In short, it’s a combination of a more traditional grand layered with something bright like a Yamaha CP electric grand sample. Tony even used a Nord Stage as he was demonstrating it. It creates a full and bright, almost honky-took type of sound. To me, it sounds awful by itself, but seems to work pretty well in the “din of battle”, as Mr. Hollis likes to say.

Finally, I’ve read from others that the Black Upright works quite well for blues. I cannot attest to that, but just thought I’d pass it along.

[bartley99]

I play in a couple blues/boogie bands with obnoxiously loud guitar players. If I turn up, it gets boomy in the bass and my left had always seems louder. When I solo, there's not enough sparkle on top. Bottom line: piano is a full frequency instrument and you need pick your range to shine. When it's loud, there is no balanced piano sound.

I setup a patch with the same piano the A and B slot. I split so left hand is lower in volume and the right hand is louder. I EQ the boom out the slot A and add lo-midrange presence / highs to the right hand. I setup the compression at noon and engage when I solo so it cuts through. This helps the keep the bass under control without having to EQ the life out of it. Being able to EQ the top and bottom separately has helped tremendously. The thing to be aware of is that these patches sound like ass though headphones. "Where's the bottom,it's so thin". "Why's the top so piercing?". But once in a show, it all comes together.

I've made a couple variations with using different pianos sounds and different degrees of volume depending on the style of music I'm playing. For example, if I do a hard boogie and my left hand is playing heavy, the patch compensates by having a lower volume left hand.

I do this for both a Stage3 88 and a stage2 compact. The Compact action is not ideal for boogie and rock piano and this setup seems to help fit into the mix a little better. The split transitions in the Stage3 make the transition in volumes between left and right.

With this setup I experience less ear fatigue during a 4 hour show, piano bass frequency doesn't fight with electric bass, play comfortably and cut through when needed on solos. Happy to share my patches if you wanna give them a try.

[theadman]

That's exactly what I do! I use Grand Lady D with two separate A/B split zones with different volumes to lighten the bottom, and the upper portion EQ'd a bit brighter. For some reason, I've found that a *small* amount of delay seems to help the sound as well. You don't even notice it unless you hit a single note, but it seems to add a bit of presence.

Again, if Nord could hold their nose and engineer a piano that's meant for these types of situations (simpler sound, more up-front presence), a whole lot of comments would disappear. Nord?

[harmonizer]

theadman, have you tried the White Grand?

[Duplobaustein]

best Hammond sound out there,

Lol, not at all. Not even close.

[Ton Beljon]

For Rock Piano; I layer the white grand with a little of electric grand (yamaha cp 80). For me this works very well (to battle with two heavy gitars ; )).

[anotherscott]

So I would suggest to Nord that you do exactly that: put out a good mono piano that stands the test of people playing sloppy blues and rock in loud clubs. In other words, dumb it down. Just one (grand) piano! Strip the finer string noise, sympathetic vibrations, faint reverb, etc

Well the S versions have no key-down or pedal-down sympathetic vibrations. A piano does have other inherent resonances which will be present in any recording of its notes. I guess you could minimize that by covering the interior side of all the (reachable) outer surfaces with felt. And use felts to stop the undamped strings from ringing (which is something they might be doing anyway).

I’ve only played an 88 in a store. I haven’t played a compact, but I have a feeling that the HP action is probably pretty close to the 88.

The HP is pretty different from the 88.

I see a lot of people not being too thrilled with the HP action, but it works fine for me.

I think it's hard to be sure that the HP works fine for you, if you're having a hard time getting the piano sound you want out of it. I've seen posts where people say that they don't think a Nord sounds good when the play it, but then they go into the audience and have someone else play it, and it sounds great. So it could be something about the way the feel is (or isn't) matching up psychoacoustically with the sound that is creating your disappointment, rather than actually an issue with the sound per se.

{quoting others}
"It does sound better through head phones than speakers."

For those who say it sounds good through phones and not speakers, the issue is probably needing better speakers. But it is an interesting question as to why some other models seem to be more forgiving of being played through inferior speakers. Which brings me to this...

@theadman does have a point -- there is no factory-supplied piano sample that sounds good in that sort of situation: loud guitar blues band, sub-optimal amplification, etc. And a bunch of other stage pianos do have that. However, some of the factory-supplied presets can do a good job (e.g. Power Piano).

I believe the basic samples in most sample-based pianos in most keyboards are "pure" with as little manipulation as possible. I think what's different about Nord is that you can easily actually play them that way, which may not be the case in other boards. In many of the boards from Kurzweil, Korg, Yamaha, Kawai, or Casio, I don't think you necessarily have access to any piano patch that doesn't add processing (whatever combination of EQ, compression, reverb, etc.). Certainly at most just one for each included piano model (and most non Nords have just 1 or 2 grands), and maybe not even that. On the more advanced models, where you have access to the underlying wave, you could build such a piano, but I would not assume that any factory patch actually presents the piano "nude", as Nord does when you simply select a piano from its piano panel and don't enable any processing/effects/EQ on it. So I think you're on the right track when you say you should check out the factory-supplied presets, and think about that in the context of the fact that, on any of those other boards, the ONLY way to play one of their piano sounds is from one of the factory-supplied presets, and the vast majority--perhaps all--of the piano patches in those other boards are already processed. On the Nord, those processed (EQ'd etc.) pianos are only going to be available in factory presets, or ones you create from the front panel controls.

This is the reason why I sway between my Nord Stage3...and my Kurzweil Forte7. And this is the reason, why sometimes my very old midi-modules YAMAHA P50m or ROLAND XV-2020 in band-context sound better than the great...Nord-samples. A pure (MONO) piano out of my Kurzweil has more presence than the large Nord-Samples.

That's consistent with my previous paragraph.

the only piano vaguely designed for headphones is the Royal 3D.

More than vaguely. Binaural is specifically designed for headphone reproduction. If it happens to sound good for anything else, it's a happy coincidence.

[Gambold]

I play in a rock-pop band that ventures into some light jazz and blues. My experience is the biggest sound concern I have is being under-mixed and getting lost in the murk of guitar amps and thrashing toms. Most "sound guys" are not used to bands with keyboards, especially those with, ahem, accomplished full hands playing on acoustic samples, and not just single-finger 1980s synth lines.

So unless it's a sensitive moment with just me and the singer, I play the Bright. I like the Silver better for Nord's "bright" samples, I think it has a richer sound, but nothing beats the Bright for making yourself heard in an electric outfit. I know some people swear by uprights for that old-timey, barrelhouse blues sound, but the uprights as a rule don't cut it in a full band environment - you want as much breadth of sound that you can get, and you need something that rings above the din - cranking your treble EQ isn't going to help. If things get quiet I would consider going to one of the Steinways, but I'll stay with the grands.

[Gambold]

The bottom line, of course, is that for piano players, all sampled acoustic pianos sound like sh*t. There is no way around it - just like synthesized brass sections never cut it compared to a real horn line. If you want a great acoustic piano sound, then you have to do what Freddie Mercury did and play a real piano on stage. Unfortunately, that's not an option for most of us, especially now in modern times where venues don't provide a lovingly beat-up old acoustic piano for you. So we struggle to find the best digital ones - and Nord does a pretty good job giving us options, I don't see anyone shouting for Korg on this thread.

[theadman]

Gambold - LOL +1 on the sound guys. I'm originally from New Orleans, where keyboard guys get a lot of respect, currently living in Denver where they don't. I can't tell you the number of gigs that I've played where I would ask my friends, "how did the keyboard sound?" and they would say, "I don't know - we really couldn't hear you very well."

Life is all about acceptance. (Except for the lack of a simple piano with up-front presence from Nord!)