Skipping the House PA...

[That1Guy]

I perform for a church of about 200 people every week. Our group is typically seven singers and just me on keys. Occasionally we have drum, bass and guitar. I am considering getting a large amp to play through instead of going through the pa. The person running the sound is not the greatest. There have been many times in which he forgot to turn me on or I'm not loud enough to be heard. I currently use a Roland kc150 for my personal monitoring which I (oddly) love. I am thinking about a large version of it or a powered pa speaker. I personally enjoy the flexibility and honestly (maybe sadly) the tone of my KC. I just can't push my KC hard enough without distorting. I have recently purchased and returned a Yamaha DBR10. Comparing side by side the DBR sounded like it had a blanket over it.
Has anyone here ever ditched the house PA and gone directly through their amps? Are there any unforeseen issues (or am I crazy) considering this route?

[fieldflower]

The major issue is that you can't judge the right volume for the house while sitting on stage, and also not while playing (since "more me" is desired to hear what you're doing while playing).
The only good way to resolve this is to exchange the sound guy for someone who cares and actually listens to the music.

Having a pre-soundchecked mix and simply turning stuff on/off is better than everyone having personal amps that they turn up/down according to own perception.
But having a (decent) sound guy is by far better...

[spradders]

what training have you given the sound guy?
what guidelines does he have for turning up and doing soundcheck during rehearsal?
have you got someone else in the congregation who can act as your 'ears' and help the sound guy get a good mix?
what feedback mechanism do you have to help him understand when it's good, and what could be improved?

the best answer is unlikely to be just getting a louder amp.

[Berretje]

And do you have proper monitoring?

[dhbp-nord]

Have someone else play your keys during soundcheck and go hangout with the sound guy, that should straighten him out pretty quickly.

DH

[daveshrews]

I've been in the same situation plenty of times, and there are certain venues and gigs where I think skipping the house PA is the safest option. I wouldn't generally recommend it for most people, but if you feel like you have a pretty good ear for what volume you should be at, I think it's fine. For a 200 person church with a not-so-great sound person, the BEST option would be better training for the sound person, but I've certainly worked around the sound guy with my own amp and had great luck.

If the stage and setup allows, I like running in stereo when I do this in a room that size, and have had great luck with a pair of QSC K8's. Good luck!

[danrv]

There have been many times in which he forgot to turn me on or I'm not loud enough to be heard.

Agree with others, that needs to be addressed first.
I think with that size audience, a soundman controlling the FOH mix is best.
The KC150 would be enough for your own keys monitoring and for the vocalists to hear. Add the the rest of the band then PA monitors would probably be needed.
I still have my Roland KC150 and I do like it. I used a KC350 for a few years which was great as a one box stereo mixing combo but sold that eventually when I got the Stage 2. I found the Roland amps fine with Roland, Yamaha and Korg boards
but the Nord piano samples sounded pretty bad through them.

I’ve heard the Yamaha DBR10 and thought it sounded a bit ‘tubby’. DXR10 far better.
My 2 DXR10s do the lot. Compact enough for stereo monitoring and enough power to be heard if not going through FOH.
I raise mine on mini tripods.
Just using one would be far better than the Roland.

If you can make it work with the KC150 and sort out the soundman then that’s best as that keeps stage volume down.
If you want an amp/powered speaker though that gives you better sound and more headroom, then a powered 10” speaker or two from Yamaha or QSC would improve things.

[cphollis]

I perform for a church of about 200 people every week. Our group is typically seven singers and just me on keys. Occasionally we have drum, bass and guitar. I am considering getting a large amp to play through instead of going through the pa. The person running the sound is not the greatest. There have been many times in which he forgot to turn me on or I'm not loud enough to be heard. I currently use a Roland kc150 for my personal monitoring which I (oddly) love. I am thinking about a large version of it or a powered pa speaker. I personally enjoy the flexibility and honestly (maybe sadly) the tone of my KC. I just can't push my KC hard enough without distorting. I have recently purchased and returned a Yamaha DBR10. Comparing side by side the DBR sounded like it had a blanket over it.
Has anyone here ever ditched the house PA and gone directly through their amps? Are there any unforeseen issues (or am I crazy) considering this route?

Lots to talk about here, so let's get started?

To FOH or not FOH, that is the (first) question.

I *always* bring amplification when there's FOH. If the sound person can handle the FOH mix *and* my monitors, I won't need my amplification. Happens very rarely, but it has happened. If FOH can handle FOH but not my monitoring, I turn up my amplification a bit. If they can't get FOH or my monitoring right, I take matters into my own hands. It's all up to the FOH person, not me. That way, I'm never disappointed!

Now, on to amplification?

You're filling a 200-person venue at modest volume where the focus is the singers, not the band. So think "nice, clean enveloping sound" for the audience. There is no "keyboard amp" that will do that for you. They are single point sources, think of them as a flashlight you aim in a specific direction. They most likely won't sound good with acoustic pianos. I have tried several keyboard amps, and never liked them. Not what you want here.

A single Yamaha DBR10 is pretty much the same as a low-end keyboard amp. At $399 US, you're talking about entry-level gear here. I'm not surprised you didn't like it. I'm sure I wouldn't.

So then we get into the touchy question of how much do you want to spend to sound good?

First, if you want a nice, enveloping sound for your audience, we're talking stereo. Many people in your situation go with something like a pair of QSC K8.2 units (highly recommended) or Yamaha DXR-10s (also highly recommended). The minimally acceptable budget version of this approach is often the Electro Voice ZXA1 units. Bring poles, put'em behind you and spread them out a bit, you'll be a happy camper and you'll have that nice, clean, enveloping sound. Also enough volume to be heard if the FOH sucks.

The other popular unit for this type of application is the CPS SpaceStation V.3. It's a single unit that produces a pleasant, enveloping stereo sound from a single compact cabinet. There's a bit of a learning curve in terms of placement, and you never can get your APs to sound 100%, but it's often good enough. Don't pay attention to the specs, if it isn't loud enough for you, you're playing too darn loud. Which won't be a problem in your situation.

The nice thing that I like about it is that it radiates 300 degrees, and it sounds great no matter where you are in the room -- or on stage. A simple mono feed to the FOH off the back, and you're good.

Best of luck.

[That1Guy]

Thank you all for the great input. Agreed that the sound man needs to be addressed. I guess I'm just frustrated. Our system is a pair of turbo sound i2000s and sounds great. Maybe I'll just set my levels and put some tape over my channel lol.
I think I'll definitely consider the QSC 8 for the other gigs we don't use the sound system. They seem to be very highly regarded on this forum.
Good news, however, our church is considering getting a digital sound board. That would greatly reduce our set-up time, because we only have the venue for 4 hours and that is including setup, teardown and service.

[spradders]

hi - I know this sounds really obvious - but also check that your soundman understands the role of Gain on the desk. Sometimes when the keyboard can't be heard I've had the sound guy tell me that the volume is almost at maximum etc ... which it is on the fader/slider, but it's because the gain was set way too low. I generally switch off my monitors at some point in rehearsal so I get an idea of how much keyboard is going through the PA, then adopt a confused look and ask 'How does the keyboard sound out there...?'. Also, if you're increasing your monitor level loud on-stage then the soundman is quite likely to turn it down out front because you seem so loud already; but when the room gets full of people your sound will get lost.
I'm rambling. But I think I'm saying:
- If you're going through the PA for FOH sound, keep your monitors relatively low, or switch them off at some point in rehearsl and check the FOH level. Make sure that you have enough gain on your channel so that the soundman doesn't just look at the fader/slider and decide you must be loud enough.