How to achieve more Piano Gain / Volume?

[Topcat]

Hi there

Has anyone managed to achieve more gain/volume when recording with the Nord piano samples?

The Nord piano samples are fairly quiet compared to the synths/rhodes/organs etc. I'm hoping to record piano without cranking the gain knob quite so high as my last project. Anyone used a DI box to run their piano through preamps?

Anyone who's recorded the Nord piano samples, I'd love some feedback on your experiences/tips/suggestions.

Tks!

Tracey

[Mr_-G-]

Not sure if we are talking about the same thing, but maybe my first post in this thread helps?
http://www.norduserforum.com/nord-stage ... t4197.html

[Cute James]

I'm not recording, however I recently started using an ART Studio tube pre-amp to boost the signal and 'warm-up' my Electro's sound. The unit is relatively inexpensive, but mono only, so I've purchased a second box to combine the two for stereo sound. I believe there are handful of other Nord users who are doing the same thing.

Best of luck!
James
x

[Rusty Mike]

In addition to using a preamp, I've gone through the trouble of regulating my often used programs to minimize the volume differences. It's mostly a matter of using the Gain control and resaving the program. Most of my piano patches are on the same level or close. I do have to turn the volume up when using organ patches; I'm not sure if this is due to using a control pedal attenuates the sound a bit or if the organ patches are just quieter than the piano samples. It's not a show stopper. I play a lot more piano than organ anyway.

[RedLeo]

The Nords are notorious for having low output levels, and unfortunately there's nothing you can really do about it. Using a DI box into a mic preamp doesn't by itself make any difference. All you're doing is reducing the Nord's Line level output to Mic level with the DI box, then using the Mic preamp to raise the Mic level back to Line level ie you just end up back where you started. (There can, particularly for live use, be other benefits to using a DI box, such as protection from interference and avoiding ground loops etc. but that's a different issue).

Basically, however you increase the level of the Nord to where you need it to be to record it, the route doesn't matter, the end result will always be exactly the same. Having said this, you should try and avoid any method that involves using really high gains on budget equipment, as this can introduce additional noise and hum into the system (because you're pushing budget electronics to their limit).

The best thing to do though, is to start by making sure that your Nord is producing as much level as it can to start with, so that subsequent gain-boosting circuits aren't working any harder than they need to. (There can be some exceptions to this basic concept, however, depending on various combinations of equipment and circumstances, so please be aware that I'm talking "as a general rule" here).

[FunKey]

I'm not completely sure, but I think that if you turn on the compressor at a low level so that the "active" LED never lights up, it will only make everything louder but not actually compress anything.

On my Stage 2, pianos and EPs seem quite similar in volume, but that changes as soon as the "drive" knob comes into play.

[Gustavo]

I'm not completely sure, but I think that if you turn on the compressor at a low level so that the "active" LED never lights up, it will only make everything louder but not actually compress anything.

On my Stage 2, pianos and EPs seem quite similar in volume, but that changes as soon as the "drive" knob comes into play.

Same here. Since I tend to use pianos bare naked and EPs and Organs with Drive and Synth stuff is always kind of loud, Pianos do sound somewhat lower in volume. So a Compressor might be of help.

For recording, I think that what you should do depends on what you record with. Do you use tape, digital recorders, an audio interface, or just the headphone output? Each variant will have a different solution I believe.

For me, if I would need to balance them out and always have my mixer at hand with two separate stereo channels I would do this:

1. Set "System::Output Routing Mode:" to Global
2. Set "Piano Audio A Output" to 3&4 (Assuming you are on Panel A)
3. Always use un-amped Pianos on Panel A and always used Amped EPs on Panel B

If you do this on your mixer and balance both stereo channels levels and do not ever mess with it again (as a matter of fact, make some kind of removable marking) then you should not have trouble while recording ever again.

Saludos,
Gustavo

[kelpchofs]

Recording levels can be a religious topic among computer-based audio engineers. One camp says, "Emulate analog gain staging as much as possible; ignore you DAW's peak meters for they shall beguile thee!" The other camp says, "This is a new world; digital is digital; push levels to just below clipping." I'm in the first camp.

0 on an analog VU meter typically (there can be different calibration settings) corresponds to -18 dbFS, which is what you'd see on your DAW's peak meter. So if you're recording between -18 and -12 on your DAW's peak meters you're in that sweet spot. This is what I get when I run my Stage 2's outputs to my audio interface's LINE inputs with the Nord's volume cranked and the piano section cranked (sometimes I drop that a couple of dBs). So, I'm totally happy with the Nord's levels.

Are you having a noise floor problem? There shouldn't be a problem with cranking the Nord's volume knob (granted, balancing program levels in a live situation is necessary on any board).

[Topcat]

Thanks for the many detailed responses guys.....

James, I will have more of a look at the Art studio pre-amp, as it looks interesting. Mr G, looks like an interesting article and I'll check it out.

Rusty Mike, they are certainly good tips for 'live' performance:)

RedLeo & Kelfchops, I agree that Nord piano levels are quite low. Years ago I used to play on live stage, and used both a Kawaii MP9500 and at times the Yamaha Motif and a Korg synth. All of these had quite high output levels, including the pianos. When I recorded live albums with a band, my piano levels were always at 50% on the keyboard gain control, as instructed by the professional sound engineers.

Years later when I bought my Nord, I was surprised how little volume/gain it had on the piano samples. My Nord has always had plenty of gain on the synths, organs, etc, but not the pianos. With my last recorded project, I recorded the pianos with the gain quite high on my Nord, which was needed to get the volumes at a reasonable level. In general, the piano levels sit between -20 to -8db, as I have a lot of light and shade in my playing style. I'm not happy about the fact I've had to crank the Nord stage gain level to get it there though. I have a sneaking suspicion that this is creating some very subtle and hidden noise/fuzz in the recording. In my last recorded album we had issues when it came to having the project professionally mastered. The recordings sounded great on all studio and normal speakers etc, but on small devices like the iphone speakers, the mastered tracks distorted. Whilst we were able to work around much of it, there is still some 'fuzz' if played on inferior speakers on small touch devices.

So, it's a process of elimination at the moment, we're wanting to ensure we clean up any potential 'noise' issues in the recording chain. Ideally I'd like to record with my Nord gain levels at 50%, as per recommendations I've had over the years, but I'm not sure this will be possible with the Nord. I've read that DI boxes can help to give up to 30% more gain, so I'm researching that further at the moment.

Funkey and Gustavo, thanks for the tips. I'm using a Focusrite Scarlett 18i6 audio interface. I do occassionally use the Nord compression feature for 'live', as it's great to even up the levels and not so noticeable in a raw setting. However, in the studio setting for recording, I'm pretty fussy with the sound of my piano, and I'm not a huge fan of the way the compression sounds on the Nord. So, I leave compression to the final mixing and mastering stages.

Tks for all the time you guys have put into thoughtful responses. I'll keep you posted if I have any progress with new gear and some other experiments I'm doing with recording levels on my Nord this week.

[RedLeo]

Ideally I'd like to record with my Nord gain levels at 50%, as per recommendations I've had over the years, but I'm not sure this will be possible with the Nord.

I wouldn't worry about trying to do this. Live sound requirements are different from studio needs. Live sound engineers prefer conservative levels as it reduces any unpleasant surprises - ie unexpected overloads - in an unpredictable situation. In the studio, it's fine to keep the output levels of your instruments high (it helps reduce noise), as you have complete control over every stage of the process. If you turn down the output level of the Nord, you'll only have to increase the level again further down the line to compensate anyway, and risk adding more noise.

I've listened to your recorded tracks and they sounded very clean to me (nice work, BTW). If there were any problems inherent in the recordings, these would have shown up on better quality speakers for sure. I suspect the problem you experienced with playing your tracks on iphone speakers is probably an unrelated issue, though I couldn't hazard a guess as to what it might be, I'm afraid.