Improving the Rhodes pianos

[sakari]

Yesterday I spend some time trying to find out what is "wrong" with some of the Rhodes sounds and I have to agree with some previous comments that by default some of the sounds do not bite for soloing. I got the feeling that the upper part of the registers are shallow dynamically for most of the epianos, and perhaps Nord could improve this without having to resample the whole piano set, but by changing the relative volumes or velocity layers across the keyboard.

I found that the parametric EQ, the drive and the compressor can help improve this. I always (wrongly?) assumed that the compressor would reduce the dynamic range of the instrument, making low notes sound louder, white the top loudness would not be altered. However, if you try hitting high notes hard repeatedly (reaching theoretically the max volume) it can increase further the volume as you increase the compression setting. About 5 of compression seems good for epiano 3 (Shallow) with a Dynamic setting of 3 without losing too much dynamic range in the low velocity notes. Adding bit of drive (~0.9) and fiddling with the equaliser (near max Treble) the adds a lot more of that missing "bite" and presence to the sound in the top third of the keyboard.
Maybe everybody knew this already but I thought that I would mention because the difference is quite noticeable.

[jazzystu]

My last old Rhodes was a Mk1 Suitcase. It had a real "tone" to it. Totally unlike Mk1 Clean (or whatever it's called). I can get closeish to it by using the EQ and boosting the mid right up, cutting the bass and treble just a bit on EP2 Suitcase. I find that adding compression takes something away from the feel of them.

When you -6 the transpose, you get a load of notes below that of a 88 note. These are "in the series" sound wise and I have a feeling that Nord have perhaps applied some sort of digital smoothing/remodelling to the sampled sounds they used. I think someone made the choice to not use the sound they got off the actual piano, because it is nothing like ANY of the many Rhodes I have owned.

All they need to do is get into a decent studio with a decently set up original Rhodes and sample every note, warts and all. As many of you will know, despite the best efforts to set one up, even with new grommets, hammer tips, felts and an oscilloscope, it is bloody hard to get every note of a Rhodes right. I have a feeling that Nord used some trickery to make it more perfect. Whatever they used, unlike all of the acoustic pianos was not simply a note for note sample.

There are countless grands/uprights and it seems that they can just bring another one out. What I wish is instead of a Moroccan Upright, which will be similar to what they will sample next, they did a few Rhodes.

Perhaps something like an Ambient Suitcase turned up loud, a close miked suitcase, a few setups with Stages run through Fender amps....ambient. Just like the piano.

However, it seems to me like they can't do it. We're likely to get a Prototype Mk4.5 dyno my piano or something like that.

Crank the mid up and wait until they bring something else out.

I am actively seeking another Suitcase 88.

[anotherscott]

unlike all of the acoustic pianos was not simply a note for note sample

The only acoustic pianos that are note for note samples are the XL versions. All the rest use periodic sampling with stretching (as do the EPs).

I think one of the complications is that, more so than with acoustics, EP sound vary enormously with velocity, and I think getting the velocity response right is one if the big tricks. Something I found interesting on the little Korg Microstation is that their acoustic piano has only one velocity layer, but their rhodes sample has three! (And it's still not a particularly good EP.) So, at least as much as sampling all the notes, there is a real issue in having a sufficient number of samples per note, and getting them to respond and transition well.

[monsterjazzlicks]

i have a Mk 2 Suitcase and it sounds 1,000 x better than my Nord Stage. The Rhodes are ok on the Nord but sound nothing like a real Rhodes when set up back to back. The obvious good thing about the Nord is its a simple one-man-lift and it will easily fit in the back of my car.

On the Nord i have to apply an FX 1 & 2, apply Compression, and i have the Dynamic setting on '1.

Like yourselves, i have no interest in DYNO type pianos !!! i bought the Nord hoping to get away from all those !!'

[jazzystu]

The Nord has turned out to be an OK keyboard, rather than a replacement for the old gear.

I was blown away by it when I first got it but now, it's pretty good, but there are lots of holes in it.

I'll get another D6 clavinet with a Boss PW-10 wah and a Rhodes Suitcase 88 and a couple of microphones as well as a VF-1 effects processor. Waiting for the right value instrument to come up is the snag. I'll probably go for good condition complete ones which require a complete rebuild, rather than bashed and trashed gigging instruments.

The Nord does have a good organ, good acoustic pianos and a pretty good synth.

The rest of it is short IMO.

[monsterjazzlicks]

Jazzy Stu,

i have a Hohner E7 and a Crybaby pedal. Sounds out of this world !! But the Clavinet on the Nord is way good enough for most gigs. i may try a Data Entry pedal to control the Wah value at some point.

i was really lucky with my Rhodes as it was a very quick cash sale (was owned by Paul Young of 'Sad Cafe'). Best instrument i have ever bought, period !! Makes the Nord EP's sound like an embarrasment !!

The Organs and Organ Panel are excellent on the Nord. No complaints.

The Synth Section is fine for what i need it for (mostly LH Bass sounds).

Actually, my all time fav feature of the Nord is the neat External Section !!

[jazzystu]

In 1999 I was in my 3rd year of university and bought a D6 from the states for $800. UPS smashed the s*** out of it. I retipped it, replaced the pickups and replaced the "transformer with the wires which had broken". It was fine, I never got around to replacing the broken threads which held the harp in, that would have involved taking the harp off it's backing board which was difficult for a reason I forget....they may have glued the screws in. Anyway, it sounded great. Whatever I ran it through sounded fat. The "out of phase" spikey sound was playable. The Nord sound isn't, it's too thin, likewise the pickups in phase is lacking something. The whole keyboard doesn't respond like a clav, even on the "3" dynamic position. I used mine with a really bad wah pedal I got from a boot sale and it was epic.

There is a lot of "ohhhhh man, you need a proper X to sound like an X because it's more than just velocity and aftertouch". It really isn't. Nord could have sampled my old clavinet and it would have been bang on, but they didn't. Same as they didn't with the Rhodes.

I have a lot of money to spend for the right gear and the Nord is good, but no cigar. They can't seem to do a good clavinet or a rhodes, yet they prove themselves again and again with respect of acoustic pianos.

Hey, I'm just some asshole with a few grand, I don't matter. I'll vote with my feet and get the real gear again. I do applaud Nord for giving me something which I can gig, rather than having to drag all those boxes around, but I can't rely on them to do the right job. I've played my tits off to sound good and I expect my gear to give value. If I can't, I'll use the proper gear until someone gives me the lightweight stuff.

[jazzystu]

In 1999 I was in my 3rd year of university and bought a D6 from the states for $800. UPS smashed the s*** out of it. I retipped it, replaced the pickups and replaced the "transformer with the wires which had broken". It was fine, I never got around to replacing the broken threads which held the harp in, that would have involved taking the harp off it's backing board which was difficult for a reason I forget....they may have glued the screws in. Anyway, it sounded great. Whatever I ran it through sounded fat. The "out of phase" spikey sound was playable. The Nord sound isn't, it's too thin, likewise the pickups in phase is lacking something. The whole keyboard doesn't respond like a clav, even on the "3" dynamic position. I used mine with a really bad wah pedal I got from a boot sale and it was epic.

There is a lot of "ohhhhh man, you need a proper X to sound like an X because it's more than just velocity and aftertouch". It really isn't. Nord could have sampled my old clavinet and it would have been bang on, but they didn't. Same as they didn't with the Rhodes.

I have a lot of money to spend for the right gear and the Nord is good, but no cigar. They can't seem to do a good clavinet or a rhodes, yet they prove themselves again and again with respect of acoustic pianos.

Hey, I'm just some asshole with a few grand, I don't matter. I'll vote with my feet and get the real gear again. I do applaud Nord for giving me something which I can gig, rather than having to drag all those boxes around, but I can't rely on them to do the right job. I've played my tits off to sound good and I expect my gear to give value. If I can't, I'll use the proper gear until someone gives me the lightweight stuff.

[bluesbaba]

I think one of the complications is that, more so than with acoustics, EP sound vary enormously with velocity, and I think getting the velocity response right is one if the big tricks.

Yes, that is what I meant by "shallow dynamics". There is also some missing volume at high velocity, specially in the highest octaves (sounds like a limiter, or like if the dynamic curve reaches the maximum too quickly).
If you intialise the piano section, and try the different epianos, they change very little in volume when hitting the keys harder (faster).
I find this somewhat odd because the acoustic pianos seem to behave much better in this respect than the epianos. Perhaps this is due to the difference in harmonic content of the different types of sound, but this should be fixable and I really wish Nord could so something about it (please!).
That should take much less time than sampling all epianos again and would make lots of people happier.

[monsterjazzlicks]

They can't seem to do a good clavinet or a rhodes, yet they prove themselves again and again with respect of acoustic pianos.

Ha ha, it shows how different we all are here.

See, i think the Clav's are fine for the average gigs most people do with their bands (although they need FX and i also set the Dynamic high). Though yes you are totally correct in that the Nords 'response' is nothing like a real Clavinet (although this does not bother me at all because i totally LOVE the Nords 'action').

But the Pianos are a real let down for me. And i don't understand why so many people rave about them. But there again, i am on a Stage Classic and can only download the Large versions. Don't get me wrong, they are OK, but even so i think Roland totally blow the arse of Nord in the Acc. Piano department. Although, i have not tried out the Fazioli yet so i am hoping it is something of a leap forward.