Amp vs. powered monitor?

[Dugrok]

Hey everyone,

I've had my NS2 HA88 for about 6 months now. At first I was only playing some smaller project with fairly respectful musicians. However, I decided I wanted to play the bar scene and hopped into a friends band to play some keys in a rock & roll band. The guitarists, and the drummers, are as you could imagine, as loud as humanely possible. For those who have seen Spinal Tap, these guys put their amps at 11. We've played a couple of gigs now and I'm having trouble hearing myself over the stage noise. What's worse is the sound guy at the bar where we play normally just plugs me into console running from my speaker (a Samson Auro d412A powered speaker... 400w). When I get to the level I need to be to hear myself, I start to distort. Of course, since what's coming out of FOH is what's coming out of my speaker, the crowd hears that same distortion (not that they can probably hear anything at all tbh, but whatever).

So my question is this : What do you guys play with? Amps or powered speakers? Should I be looking for a more powerful speaker or a dedicated amp? Or, should I tell the guys to quiet up so that I can hear myself?

Thanks in advance,
Michel

[RedLeo]

Your chances of getting them to turn down are pretty much zero. More volume probably isn't going to help you much either. I'm guessing, but from your description, it sounds like they're so loud they're probably saturating the environment, so adding more volume will probably just make the situation worse. Frankly, I think you're on a hiding to nothing here.

I've had a look at reviews and specifications for the Samson powered speaker you've got, and although it's difficult to tell on paper, it seems to me that it should be loud enough for any reasonable situation. If it's not doing the trick, I doubt anything else will. Amp or powered monitor will make absolutely no difference, they just do the same thing by slightly different means.

However, don't assume that because your monitor is distorting, it neccessarily means that your FOH feed is distorted too. It all depends on exactly what is distorting. If it's just your speaker that's distorting, it could well be that your line or mic level feed is still clean. Only your sound guy can tell you the answer to that.

Volume-wise, don't try and beat your guitarists at their own game. You won't win. If using a louder monitor or moving your existing monitor closer to you might endanger your hearing, then don't do that. Seriously.

Keyboard players in rock bands generally get the thin end of the stick for exactly the reasons you've spelled out. Ultimately, your choices might be limited to either:

1. Leaving and finding more sensible musicians, or

2. Putting up with the current situation in order to gain (potentially valuable) experience. (THEN leave and find....some more sensible musicians).

Have a word with the sound guy. Ask him if your sound is distorted out front, and if you can be heard out front by the audience. If you don't like the answers you get, then go back and consider options 1 and 2 above.

Good luck (You're going to need it!)

Oh yes - buy some ear defenders. And USE THEM.

[Mr_-G-]

Another idea...
Record the band from both the mixer and also from a live mic somewhere, then discuss the results with your fellow musicians.
If it sounds awful and they do not acknowledge there is a problem, then nothing will!

If it still sounds OK, then you need better monitoring.
I am surprised you can't hear yourself with a 400w amp next to you???
I play with a 60W cube and from its Record "out" into the mixer.
We get monitoring too so everybody should hear a bit what comes out of the PA.

[Frantz]

Michel, while reading your message my thoughts were :
"Funny, we all encounter that situation one day or another ..."
Then : "His amp should be enough ... my god his situation seems Xtreme ! I'll tell him the most important is to protect his ears".
I do not play in a similar situation, but a friend (drummer) told me there are special earplugs, custom made on your ears, that can protect you efficiently and let you ear what you play.
Maybe someone knows here what I'm talking about, or I'll ask him details when I see him.
Good luck.

[Mr_-G-]

Very good point frantzkb

[mjbrands]

The guitarists, and the drummers, are as you could imagine, as loud as humanely possible. ... I'm having trouble hearing myself

I also thought 'oh oh, once your hearing's gone, you'll regret not having taken precautions...'

I think those stores that also sell hearing aids can make molds of your ears and have plugs made with the right kind of filter. They'll know what type of filter you need. You could probably also ask your doctor, he'll probably know where you can get those made close to were you live.

Another option would be a set of personal monitors; special small in-ear speakers that also dampen the sound a lot. If you get a wireless set, you might be able to get the FoH mix sent back to your ears. Since they have a volume control, you decide how loud you want them. And with some types, they're hardly visible. The ones that don't use a custom ear mold take getting used to and may cause a headache in the beginning, because your ears aren't used to the pressure the silicon sleeves exert on your ear canal. The ones with custom molds (as well as just custom molds with filters) are very comfortable to wear.

I have a set of Shure E2C's - they're a bit older and I use them if I need to concentrate at work. In the typical Dutch workplace you'll be sitting with maybe 8-16 people in the same large room (literal translation: 'office garden') and it can get pretty noisy and busy.

[FunKey]

At the risk of revealing myself as a total newbie: Why don't you connect your instrument directly to the mixer, and keep your monitoring separate? Then you would be the only one hearing the distortion.

I've been using the headphone output of my NS2 for monitoring without running into problems. Y cables might work as well.

[rb4u1]

QSC k10 500 watt 10 inch woofer. 32 lbs. about $600-.
Ymmv

[Dugrok]

Hey everyone, thanks for your answers. It seems us keyboardists endure much of the same!

At the risk of revealing myself as a total newbie: Why don't you connect your instrument directly to the mixer, and keep your monitoring separate? Then you would be the only one hearing the distortion.

I've been using the headphone output of my NS2 for monitoring without running into problems. Y cables might work as well.

The level of professionalism in the bar where we play isn't all that high. Unfortunately, despite being in a city of close to 200 000 people, it's pretty much the only venue to have a regular music, or even a sound technician for that matter (despite the man probably being deaf at this point).

I've had a look at reviews and specifications for the Samson powered speaker you've got, and although it's difficult to tell on paper, it seems to me that it should be loud enough for any reasonable situation. If it's not doing the trick, I doubt anything else will. Amp or powered monitor will make absolutely no difference, they just do the same thing by slightly different means.

This is what I was afraid of. I was fairly sure that this 400w speaker would be enough.

Oh yes - buy some ear defenders. And USE THEM.

Did that after the first practice. World of difference. As a guy who also plays classical music (and to be honest, who enjoys hearing in general derrrrp), this was a must.

Another idea...
Record the band from both the mixer and also from a live mic somewhere, then discuss the results with your fellow musicians.
If it sounds awful and they do not acknowledge there is a problem, then nothing will!

If it still sounds OK, then you need better monitoring.
I am surprised you can't hear yourself with a 400w amp next to you???
I play with a 60W cube and from its Record "out" into the mixer.
We get monitoring too so everybody should hear a bit what comes out of the PA.

I'll try and record the next gig! This should help for sure! Especially considering the guys want to record an album and take the show on tour in the near future. I had some friends in the crowd and they assure me that the keyboard is sounding fine most of the time.

[Frantz]

Maybe someone knows here what I'm talking about, or I'll ask him details when I see him.

This is what I was talking about : http://www.thomann.de/fr/elacin_gehoerschutz.htm