What does C1 sound like without expression pedal?

Bengt C · Post by **Bengt C** » 03 Jun 2012, 21:09

Hello.

I'm new to this forum (this is my first post). I have been an organ junkie for the last two years. At this point in life, I realized what fun instruments you can get for only 50 Euro, if you buy an organ. So far I have two: One Wersi Comet from ca -82 and one large Viscount combo organ from ca -75. Soon I realized I need some instrument with Hammond sound, and I've been investigating solutions for a while.

Some weeks ago I was looking on a 2nd hand C1 for sale. But the guy had little technical knowledge about what he was selling. In particular he had an expression pedal (Boss FV-500) where you could route stereo sound through it. He had routed a mono line from the organ through the pedal. So I took the two cables and routed a stereo line to his PA, to at least here the Leslie sim throgh stereo. However, the expression pedal also had an expression-connector that should have been connected with a stereo-1/4" plug to the organ expression outlet, in order to mimic the Hammond expression pedal characteristic. But this guy wasn't aware the expression pedal also change the timbre of the instrument and he didn't have the correct cord for this.

The thing is the instrument didn't inspire me in particular. I may not be used to it, not knowing how to adjust it for an inspiring sound. But what was really puzzling was how thin the lower manual was. When I controlled the pedal voice from the lower manual, I could play left hand bass. But when I was only relying on the drawbars, the bass was very thin. Despite a registration maximizing the 16' and 8' drawbars.

I was thinking that perhaps the organ was playing as if I was pressing the expression pedal fully, when there is no pedal connected. Perhaps the upper manual (and the treble) is playing quite loud, when there is no pedal connected. Is this the case? Do you get a thin response from the lower manual, when there is no pedal connected or what? Does that mean that an expression pedal is absolutely necessary to get a good balance over the keybed?

flmc59 · Post by **flmc59** » 03 Jun 2012, 23:56

It would sound very thin without the expression pedal connected.
When the pedal is all the way back the mid is attenuated a lot more than the bass and treble.

Post by **RedLeo** » 05 Jun 2012, 11:41

If an expression pedal is not connected, the C1 should act as if the pedal is fully on, so the lack of an expression pedal should not affect the sound in any way. As the upper and lower manuals use the same sound engine and same drawbar system, there is no reason for the lower manual to sound different from the upper manual. Unless the organ is faulty, which is unlikely, I suspect the problem is more likely to be in the way it was being used due to lack of experience. It's unlikely to be the amplifier or cable connection as that would affect the sound of the whole organ rather than just one manual.

In short, the organ should work just fine without an expression pedal, it should make no difference to anything. Of course, using an expression pedal for Swell is strongly recomended for musical reasons.

flmc59 · Post by **flmc59** » 06 Jun 2012, 02:17

I am sorry to have to dissagree with you RedLou

I have on occassion missed to plug in the Swell(volume) pedal on my Nord organs and the organ sounds different.
If you always play with the pedal all the way down at max pedal volume then there is no difference since the eq of the swell is flat.
If you have the volume pedal all the way up and you turn up the master so compensate you will get a a different sound.
The swell pedal is a combined volume and equaliser.
At min volume the mid is about -20 db down compared to bass and treble.
If you do not have the swell connected you should turn the mid all the way down and set the bass at 8 to get the same sound as with the swell connected and pedal backed off.
Regards Fredrick
Nord c1/c2/c2d ex hammond service technician

flmc59 · Post by **flmc59** » 06 Jun 2012, 02:19

Ps
If you play left hand bass in the lower manual without a swell you would ger the thin sound.
This would be the same if you used the same drawbar setting in the upper manual. As the gospel cats do.

Post by **RedLeo** » 06 Jun 2012, 21:20

Oops - my bad. I checked this on my Nord Stage, presuming that it would work the same way on the C1. On my Stage there is no difference in the sound at all whether a Swell pedal is plugged in or not.

If I disconnect the Swell pedal, the Stage immediately assumes a "Fully On" position, which you say

flmc59 wrote:at max pedal volume then there is no difference since the eq of the swell is flat.

I'm guessing we're talking about different things here?

Bengt C · Post by **Bengt C** » 06 Jun 2012, 23:27

Ok, so when no expression pedal is connected to the C1, it behaves as if the pedal is "all the way back". This is oppose to an old Italian organ (Farfisa, GEM etc) which have a pedal with lamp and LDR resistor. This type of organ would play its loudest, if no pedal is connected.

I also assume that the expression pedal doesn't affect the bass pedal voices at all, as I didn't find these voices to be thin in any way, when playing without expression pedal connected.

The thing which I don't understand is that you (Fredrick) say I should expect a weak midrange without the expression pedal connected. But I found the lowest octave in the lower manual to be thin. I mean, this octave is producing bass (rather than mid) when the 16' drawbar is all the way out. When playing left hand bass on a Hammond, you don't control bass pedal voices, but still get a decent bass level with only the 16' and 8' of the lower manual. Right?

I'm curious on this because of an injury in my left leg, I can hardly play bass and expression pedal at the same time. In order to get some kind of control, I have to play one of them, with my right foot. One of my old organs has pedals and I have put them to the right in order to play bass. But I'm thinking that perhaps I can't get an interesting sound without the expression pedal and perhaps I should practice left hand bass instead, in order to be able to use the expression pedal.

Another option could be to build some kind of knee level (for my left leg) in order to control expression.

What do you guys think: If you had to chose only one of bass pedals or expression pedal. Which one is the most important?

robnuckels · Post by **robnuckels** » 06 Jun 2012, 23:52

for me, that's a no-brainer. I would keep the Bass Pedals ! But I would MISS the expression pedal, & would make EVERY attempt to find an ergonomic solution to having to play BOTH.
As far as left hand bass & pedals , many of us do BOTH. In a walking line, for up tempo pieces, the left hand is needed to play most of the line, while the foot taps an 'on the beat ' accompaniment when playing in FOUR. When playing in TWO, my left foot plays the root & 5th (usually) & the left hand the in-between grace note accents. The same goes (for me at least )for Latin (bossa, samba,beguine, rumbha,) & funk & rock-jazz. I would heavily advise practising root & 5th on songs, starting S-L-L-L-O-O-O-W-W-W--L-L-LY-Y-Y, THEN GRADUALLY INCREASING THE TEMPO. THEN....seperately....practise the left hand . : walking in 4, in 2, etc. Later on, you can get innovative : play DOUBLE-OCTVAVES on seperate or same manuals. use either a metronome tapping on beats 2 & 4. Years ago i got tired of the metronome & bought a Boss 660 drum machine ( don't laugh, it comes in handy for SOLO GIGS !)

flmc59 · Post by **flmc59** » 07 Jun 2012, 00:59

Correction on my part if I was not specific enough

If you have NO volume pedal connected you get FULL volume = pedal to the metal.
This means you get more mid as compared to the case where you have the volume pedal connected and all the way back.

What you could do if you want to keep the bass pedals is to have a small box made with a slider potentiometer connected to the Swell input and set it to minimum. Then you will get at bassier sound

The Swell pedal affects the bass pedals as well.

The C1 is weak in the last octave of the 16" foot. This is a know issue of the C1.
Now if you combine that problem with having no swell pedal connected you get a very weak sounding 838 000 000 sound (regardless of which manual).
It is very common I think for C1 players to use the Pedals to Lower function.
Or you have to turn up the bass a bit / use a bass e1 and raise 50 hz quite a bit. The roll off happens around 125 hz.
Turning on a bit more of the second drawbar also helps a bit

The C2D and the latest upgrade for the C2 fixes this problem with the 16`lowest octave.

As for solving the problem of bass and volume with an injured leg.
Can you move the left leg sidewas - a knee operated swell could perhaps work ?
Play bass with right foot
Left leg has a knee paddle for volume.
Frederick

Bengt C · Post by **Bengt C** » 07 Jun 2012, 23:31

Fredrick, let me se if I got this right:

Without expression pedal connected, the C1 plays its loudest (like other organs). With a bass that is weak in general, and a somewhat boosted midrange, the result is the lowest octave produce a very thin sound, even when 16' and 8' are maximized.

I have been concidering Nord Electro 3 too. But then I suspect this keyboard will also be thin when playing left hand bass, as the organ sound is the same as in C1. Right?

The C2 was also thin in the bass, until the new C2D software appeared.

I find this a bit surprising. I mean C1/C2 has been around for many years and has been thin in the lowest octave just until now. That is surprising concidering how they are used.

Regarding my left leg. Yes, it's only the foot that is injured. It hangs down. In order to operate bass pedals, I have to raise the whole leg to change note which is clumsy. Precision sideways is poor and toe-heal is impossible in the case of long pedals. But I should be able to operate a knee paddle as found on some old organs. So that could be a possibilty for the expression control.

robnuckels: I also find the bass pedals to contribute more to the total sound than the expression pedal. I was asking partly because Eddie Landsberg emhasis the importance of the expression pedal in some youtube videos. Thanks for the practice advices. I don't laugh at drum machines. They are a lot funnier than metronomes. I use my vintage Wersimatic CX2 a lot, despite that variation is limited and drum samples are very short.

Thank you for yor help guys.

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