Hammond engine on Stage 3 vs. Electro 5

[tuukkao]

hi all!
I know this topic must have been beaten to death by now but I couldn't find all the answers I was looking for or the info I found was outdated. So here goes yet another topic around this subject.

I'm a long time Electro 5D user but might need to upgrade to a Stage 3 compact. (Yes, I did say 'need', that's how much I love the 5D 73.) The only thing I'm still wondering about is this: Are there any sound differences in the C2D engine between the Electro 5D and the Stage 3 compact?

I'm aware of the following feature differences/limitations:
- The 5D has clean, vintage 1, vintage 2 and vintage 3 models where as the Stage 3 has clean, vintage 1 and vintage 2.
- Reverb is placed after the rotary on the 5D where as it's before the rotary on the Stage 3.
- The Stage 3, unlike the Electro 5, doesn't mute the 9th drawbar with percussion on.
- There are less settings related to key click but you can still adjust its level even on the Stage 3.
- No way to adjust percussion decay on the Stage 3.
- The stage 3 doesn't have pedal drawbar emulation unlike the Electro 5.

So, assuming I have set up both instruments so that they are using the same settings, would the organ and rotary sound the same on both of them? Obviously not counting the reverb since that will sound different anyway.

For the record I'm using vintage 2, 122 rotary (i.e. not 122 close) and mic balance set to 40/60 on the 5D. If I can get that sound on the Stage 3 I'd be a happy camper. I actually don't mind the lack of organ settings on the Stage 3; Other than the settings mentioned above the defaults suit me just fine. And while I make use of the 'extra preset' you get when turning off percussion while you have the 9th drawbar out Ii'm willing to give up that convenience if I have to.

Also: I know the Stage 3 has separate drive controls for rotary and amp simulation. Does the rotary drive sound anything like the Electro 5D's rotary drive? I understand the Stage 3's amp section drive would be similar to what you get with the other amp simulations on the 5D.

Thanks a lot for any answers you could give me. As I said I haven't found any conclusive info about this and most Youtube videos about the Stage 3 I've seen aren't detailed enough for drawing any conclusions.

[ericL]

The sound differences are highly subjective and I think there are some threads (probably old) that cover a lot of this territory. Many prefer the NE5 over the NS3 and the NS3 organ has received a fair amount of criticism for a variety of reasons - less parameters to edit, perception of not sounding as good, fewer functions, etc.

I have owned just about all of Nord's products at this time (other than the C organs - I am not a dedicated dual manual player for gigs) and do recall loving the NE5 organ a lot, right out of the box. It took me a long time to find an organ sound on the NS3 that I could love and patience was the key. I can say with confidence now that I have an organ sound on NS3 that I love. There are some deep edits required to get the NS3 organ into the right ballpark.

I will say that the additional features on the NS3 are worth even a small tradeoff in perceived organ sound capability.

[CountFosco]

What about the option of keeping the E5 and adding a synth?

[ericL]

If you want to hear NS3 organ in a band setting, here's an example of me playing a combination of NS3 clav and organ. I play mostly a hollow organ sound on this one for about half of the song, picture 008000006 and then I bring in some stronger drawbars in the second half of the tune.



Caveat - I use a Neo Ventilator with my NS3 and have been a Vent user for over a decade. I've found a way to make the NS3 sound almost as good as the Vent, though I really really really love the sound of the Vent.

[cphollis]

I would make the case that the Electro B3 engine by itself wins by a nose compared to the NS3.

That being said, there is much more you can do with the organ engine on the NS3: use morph for things like continuously variable leslie speed, or using aftertouch to add more drive, or pitch bend your B3 solos, or ... lots of cool stuff you'd never do with the original, and useful in context. And that's before you start layering in the other engines.

[cphollis]

If you want to hear NS3 organ in a band setting, here's an example of me playing a combination of NS3 clav and organ. I play mostly a hollow organ sound on this one for about half of the song, picture 008000006 and then I bring in some stronger drawbars in the second half of the tune.



Caveat - I use a Neo Ventilator with my NS3 and have been a Vent user for over a decade. I've found a way to make the NS3 sound almost as good as the Vent, though I really really really love the sound of the Vent.

Great sounds, tasty playing, sits well in the mix!

[tuukkao]

Thank you for your valuable answers!

I have owned just about all of Nord's products at this time (other than the C organs - I am not a dedicated dual manual player for gigs) and do recall loving the NE5 organ a lot, right out of the box. It took me a long time to find an organ sound on the NS3 that I could love and patience was the key. I can say with confidence now that I have an organ sound on NS3 that I love. There are some deep edits required to get the NS3 organ into the right ballpark.

Interestingly enough I didn't particularly like the NE5 organ right out of the box. It sounded too clean and harsh to me, especially when playing solo (i.e. without a band). It was only when I set the generator mode to vintage 2 that the organ became alive for me. Other than that I've been happy with the NE5 organ in a rock/soul/funk context.

Could you give me an example of the kind of edits you've needed to do? I guess it comes down to the EQ? I've never needed to touch the eq on the NE5 when playing organ but only because I use the actual drawbars for that purpose. The sound I'm getting depends so much on the venue / PA I'm playing at any given time that I've never bothered making any permanent adjustments.

What about the option of keeping the E5 and adding a synth?

That's a good question, and something I've also thought of since the NE5 is so capable on its own. Most of the gigs I play these days are on really cramped clubs / stages and on those I prefer to go as light as I can. Also the NE5 isn't very capable as a master keyboard especially if you want to play an external synth on part lower. I play a lot of synth bass and sometimes I like to use a Bass Station 2 for that for some beefier tones. However, there's no way you can prevent the NE5 from sending sustain pedal messages on part lower and that's a huge deal for me. I know you could use something like a Midi Solutions event processor in the middle, but then it would require its own power supply and... ugh, too much little bits and pieces that can break.

If you want to hear NS3 organ in a band setting, here's an example of me playing a combination of NS3 clav and organ. I play mostly a hollow organ sound on this one for about half of the song, picture 008000006 and then I bring in some stronger drawbars in the second half of the tune.

Thanks! Really tasteful playing all the way. Oh and that sweet sweet Vent! I couldn't hear any deal-breaker level differences in that organ tone compared to the NE5. It sounded just familiar; had I not known better I would've thought that was the NE5.

[tuukkao]

Hi everyone!
After some long consideration I finally ended up buying a Stage 3 compact. I'm happy to report that the B3 emulations on both the Stage 3 and the Electro 5 are nearly identical. There are some noticeable differences but I think they are for the better. Here's a quick rundown of those that I could find:

(S3 = Stage 3 compact, E5 = Electro 5. Tonewheel mode set to Vintage 2 and mic balance to 40/60, other settings are default on both keyboards.)

- The most drastic change is in the leslie simulation's drive. S3 has a noticeably softer drive which has a more limited range than E5. I think E5's drive at around 1 o'clock sounds pretty close to the max you can get with the S3. I actually don't mind this change since E5's drive is pretty much unusable when you turn it up more than 12 o'clock, but if you find yourself playing the E5 with its drive cranked all the way to the max then you might not be able to get the same tones using the S3. However, I think you can get pretty close using the amp section's tube overdrive setting in addition to the Leslie's own drive.
- I have a feeling the S3 has a little less bass response than the E5. Again this is a welcome change since I found the E5 to be a bit boomy sometimes when playing the middle register with the first drawbar pulled all the way out.
- The Leslie's fast speed has a slightly smoother character than the E5. I think you can hear the drum and the horn separation better on the S3 than on the E5, where the sound feels somehow more squished together in comparison.
- The fast percussion setting has a slightly shorter decay on the S3 than on the E5.
- E5's rotor simulation is louder than S3's, i.e. it adds more gain to the sound when engaged. For all intents and purposes this probably doesn't make any difference in the real world.

I have also made a recording where you can hear all these differences. Each sample is played first on the S3, then on the E5. Both tracks are peak matched to 0 DB. For this reason there is a volume difference between the two instruments before I turn on the Leslie simulation. https://tuukkao.kapsi.fi/electro_vs_stage_b3.mp3

Hope you'll find these useful.