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Re: Tube Amp Organ Drive - any experience?

Postby LeftyBass68 » 28 Aug 2019, 16:27

Hammond A100 has reverb after the main preamp.Leslies add reverb 'post' too.Reverb is always last in the signal chain,even on an L100/M100 spinet rig! Verb is a 'post' effect.
Adding 'verb on a Stage 3 to the organ sounds? Morph aftertouch can put 'verb on whatever notes you choose.Morph the onboard Leslie sim speed with aftertouch? Funny.
Drawbar changes morphed with aftertouch? A more useable effect IMO. Morphed distortion with aftertouch always available too.Easier to do on a waterfall keyed Compact.
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Re: Tube Amp Organ Drive - any experience?


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Re: Tube Amp Organ Drive - any experience?

Postby analogika » 28 Aug 2019, 16:51

LeftyBass68 wrote:Hammond A100 has reverb after the main preamp.Leslies add reverb 'post' too.Reverb is always last in the signal chain,even on an L100/M100 spinet rig! Verb is a 'post' effect.

Leslies with onboard reverb do not add it after the Leslie effect. It’s a PARALLEL effect, not a “post”, on such systems.

Any organ with a built-in reverb is going to have that reverb PRE-Leslie if you hook it up to a Leslie speaker.
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Re: Tube Amp Organ Drive - any experience?

Postby fieldflower » 28 Aug 2019, 20:06

analogika wrote:
LeftyBass68 wrote:Hammond A100 has reverb after the main preamp.Leslies add reverb 'post' too.Reverb is always last in the signal chain,even on an L100/M100 spinet rig! Verb is a 'post' effect.

Leslies with onboard reverb do not add it after the Leslie effect. It’s a PARALLEL effect, not a “post”, on such systems.

Any organ with a built-in reverb is going to have that reverb PRE-Leslie if you hook it up to a Leslie speaker.


Parallel..? That can't be right...
It must add the reverb effect to the signal before it goes into the twirly speakers, so it's a PRE-Leslie effect also in a real physical Leslie.

POST reverb on a real physical Leslie must be to play it in a big naked room...
But on the other hand reverb is an effect that is aimed at mimicking playing in big actual rooms, so whether they are PRE or POST whatever in the signal the original aim was for it to sound as much POST as possible. :lol:
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Re: Tube Amp Organ Drive - any experience?

Postby LeftyBass68 » 28 Aug 2019, 23:29

An A100 preamp drives two output amps.They are summed at the reverb dial(wire wound 2 watt 100 ohm).
Reverb from an A100 'summed' with non reverb(grey on the verb pot) travels to pin 1 of these homemade Leslie interfaces.Therefore reverb is actually parallel not post,certainly not pre.
I am careful not to drive too much verb into the 147's or 760's on tremelo.Mind you they sound fantastic on chorale with tube reverb......lower manual Ab preset tibia clausa absolutely!
High C will make you cry on C1 chorus!So much for clean and sweet.
One mod that Nord should consider is the R1 bypass at the matching transformers.This allows bypass of resistance that engages whenever percussion 'normal' is selected instead of soft percussion.
Normal attenuates unless this resistor is bypassed.Mine are bypassed.This A100 clobbers on 'normal' any console without the extra amps,I have both/all of them!
These B's can't touch it for sheer volume and tone goodness.Way too polite to rock IMO.IIRC Jon Lord had two AO28's in his touring organ.And an RMI Elektra Piano interfaced with the C3.
Among other things.
Test the VRMS off an AO28.Now test it from the sum of the reverb dial.See? Way more juice.
Last edited by LeftyBass68 on 28 Aug 2019, 23:33, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Tube Amp Organ Drive - any experience?

Postby analogika » 28 Aug 2019, 23:57

LeftyBass68 wrote:An A100 preamp drives two output amps.They are summed at the reverb dial(wire wound 2 watt 100 ohm).
Reverb from an A100 'summed' with non reverb(grey on the verb pot) travels to pin 1 of these homemade Leslie interfaces.Therefore reverb is actually parallel not post,certainly not pre.

If you are sending reverb signal into the Leslie and it is running through the horn/rotor, the reverb is pre-Leslie.

Am I misunderstanding what you wrote?
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Re: Tube Amp Organ Drive - any experience?

Postby LeftyBass68 » 29 Aug 2019, 00:38

Post 'Hammond preamp'.Just like the Nord.Pre Leslie just like the Nord.By 'post' I meant AO28 preamp in an A100(AO35/44),and AO29 in M100(AO35/44),and AO43 in L100,also post preamp.
Reverb Mate /B3 setup? Still post preamp,summed like A100.TrekII verb? Still mixed post AO28 etc.,just like a Nord.Reverb on Hammond is post preamp/pre Leslie.Sorry for the confusion.
My mix of the two is usually a 47 ohm half watt resistor.....
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Re: Tube Amp Organ Drive - any experience?

Postby analogika » 29 Aug 2019, 04:00

fieldflower wrote:
analogika wrote:
LeftyBass68 wrote:Hammond A100 has reverb after the main preamp.Leslies add reverb 'post' too.Reverb is always last in the signal chain,even on an L100/M100 spinet rig! Verb is a 'post' effect.

Leslies with onboard reverb do not add it after the Leslie effect. It’s a PARALLEL effect, not a “post”, on such systems.

Any organ with a built-in reverb is going to have that reverb PRE-Leslie if you hook it up to a Leslie speaker.


Parallel..? That can't be right...
It must add the reverb effect to the signal before it goes into the twirly speakers, so it's a PRE-Leslie effect also in a real physical Leslie.

Some Leslies have their own reverb tank built in (to the Leslie itself, not the Hammond).

Those that do output the reverb signal through a separate channel and additional speakers separate from the horn and rotor.

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Re: Tube Amp Organ Drive - any experience?

Postby LeftyBass68 » 29 Aug 2019, 04:27

Oddly enough those Leslie reverb amps also use 7591's like H100 etc.Rare tubes,but so are 6GW8 in the AO44.Always on ebay,guitarists gobble them up for repurposing.
These are staying put!
Different output VRMS from an AO28 and AO39(5 pin outlet).Different again from the common of the verb dial(amps AO39/AO44 both mixed).
Like I said,the common on the A100 reverb dial is the strongest speaker level signal available to preamp any Leslie with.Two 760's are totally over the top!
Modding the AO28 inputs for line level is not a problem.Using one should restore the proper added bass at lower volumes that Nord claims to have modeled?
Also should tame the top octave they claim to have nailed too.
Nord Stage 3 B3 a good clone that should be even better.The middle three octaves are spot on! The outside octaves at lower volumes?
Not so much IMO.The tone at max volume on these Hammonds compresses more natural than the models do.That matching transformer might be needed to
maintain the compression,will find out!
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Re: Tube Amp Organ Drive - any experience?

Postby fieldflower » 29 Aug 2019, 08:07

analogika wrote:
Those that do output the reverb signal through a separate channel and additional speakers separate from the horn and rotor.


Aha, I didn't know that.
That would absolutely make it parallel...
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Re: Tube Amp Organ Drive - any experience?

Postby anotherscott » 29 Aug 2019, 14:54

cphollis wrote:Since reverb is a room effect, I tend to put it at the very end of my signal chain.

and picking up from some other posts here... There are multiple approaches to traditional Hammond/Leslie reverb sound:

1. as you say, a room effect. The sound of the "room" a Leslie was in was created by, well, the room... and you'll similarly have the sound of "the room" just by having your amp play in the room. A complication here is that the Leslie physically threw the sound around the room, which would also affect how the sound interacted with the room space. To try to get closest to that effect, I think I would go with close-mic'd Leslie settings, and put the result into a pair of speakers located right next to each other but angled 60 to 90 degrees away from each other (each 30 to 45 degrees off axis).

2. But what if you don't want your organ to sound like a Leslie is in the room with you, but rather that you and your Hammond and Leslie are in another room altogether (say, a church)? For that room effect, I would add reverb as last in the chain.

3. Another scenario is that when used on a recording (or in a PA when playing in a venue that is big enough that people would not be hearing you directly out of your Leslie), the Leslie would be mic'd up, and the sound engineer could put reverb on it for effect or to create some other room illusion. This would be replicated again by putting your reverb device last in the chain.

4. Or you might want to duplicate the effect of a Leslie that actually had a built-in spring reverb unit. This was not so common, the most ubiquitous Leslie models did not have reverb units in them, but they're out there, and you might want to emulate that sound. The designers of the RV-equipped Leslies apparently felt that sending reverb through the rotating speaker may not be so desirable, so the incoming signal was split and the reverb was sent out its own stationery speakers, parallel to the spinning speakers. Emulating this requires simultaneously generating a rotary and non-rotary version of your organ sound, where the non-rotary signal is sent to your reverb device (which in turn should emulate a spring reverb).

5. Or you might want to duplicate the effect of a Hammond that actually had a built-in spring reverb unit. AFAIK, these only appeared in Hammond models that also had their own built-in speakers. Still, in this case, my understanding is that one could take the signal out of the Hammond (spring reverb'd and all) and send it out to a Leslie. The Leslie people probably would have said this was undesirable (since they felt it best to send their own reverb to their own separate non-rotating speakers), but heck, Hammond felt that key click and distortion in their organs was undesirable, so it really just comes down to what sound you're after. To duplicate the sound of a spring reverb'd Hammond going out to a Leslie, the reverb effect would have to be placed before the rotary effect.

Now, to get back to the topic of where to place an overdrive pedal in such a chain of effects, that adds another complication. The Hammond generated some of its distortion internally (some models more than others), and that would argue for placing an overdrive before any reverb, which would also be the case in any situation where you're using reverb to create a room space (i.e. scenario 2) or to duplicate the effect of adding reverb to a mic'd up Leslie (scenario 3), since those are obviously situations where the distortion of the organ occurs before any natural or artificial room space reverb enhancement. BUT a lot of the Hammond's distortion was generated by the amp in the Leslie, which would argue for placing overdrive after the reverb WHEN you're emulating the spring reverb inside a Hammond organ, scenario 5.

Scenario 4 is up for grabs. How much distortion was created by the organ, vs. how much in the amp driving the reverb speaker, vs. how much in the amp driving the rotating speakers? Beats me. I suppose ideally you could have multiple distortion pedals sets differently! But since most people have never heard a reveb'd Leslie to begin with, figuring out how to best emulate it is probably kind of pointless. Just go with what sounds best to your ears. (Heck, the number of people who actually want to bother creating a parallel non-rotating signal for reverb is probably miniscule anyway.)

In the real thing, I suspect that most of the overdrive comes from the Leslie amp rather than the Hammond itself, but that could also vary with how hard your driving the organ (via swell pedal) and your volume settings on the amp in the Leslie. Unfortunately, I haven't played the real thing since the 70s. ;-)

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