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Re: Next version of MacOS probably doesn't support Sound Man

Postby analogika » 14 Aug 2019, 23:53

emelenjr wrote:The most recent version of Sound Manager for Mac, released this week, is not compatible with the most recent version of the Mac operating system


I’m sorry, but that is exactly the point: You’re wrong.

Beta software is by definition pre-release software. The most recent version of the Mac operating system is 10.14.6.

Running beta OS software will break software and may compromise your data.
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Re: Next version of MacOS probably doesn't support Sound Man


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Re: Next version of MacOS probably doesn't support Sound Man

Postby baekgaard » 14 Aug 2019, 23:57

emelenjr wrote:... Show of hands: did this bug fix release fix a bug you reported?


I don't think I would have been affected by the fixed bug, but I am sure someone else has been, since it has been fixed by Clavia.

But to stay with your perspective of prioritising one issue vs another based on how many people are impacted: You could also have suggested to do a count of hands of how many people are currently not able to run the sound manager on their studio/audio computer, due to a 64-bit version not being available at the moment :-)

You're entitled to your opinion, of course, and in the ideal world, everthing should be forward compatible wheneven possible. But we don't live in an ideal world, and there may be resource or other limitations we're not aware of.

As a side-note, I appreciate this discussion has so far been relatively civil, not getting into name-calling or bashing, even if there may be strong opinions.
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Re: Next version of MacOS probably doesn't support Sound Man

Postby emelenjr » 15 Aug 2019, 03:09

Name-calling wouldn’t get us anywhere. We’re all on the same team with our red keyboards, regardless of whether we are Mac users or Windows users.

It’s true that I have no idea where Clavia is in its software development cycle. Here’s hoping the wait won’t be too much longer. 64-bit apps would run better on everyone’s Macs today, not just the people who install 10.15 (the beta or the GM coming soon.)
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Re: Next version of MacOS probably doesn't support Sound Man

Postby analogika » 15 Aug 2019, 10:19

Literally the only difference you would see with a 64-bit version is the lack of the warning that the software will become unsupported.

64-bit apps do not “run better on everyone’s Macs today”. That’s just wrong. (In fact, smaller apps like the Nord apps will likely use more RAM and run slightly less efficiently in 64 bits — it’s simply not relevant for the super-light workload that these apps represent, though.)

There are technical reasons for having moved the operating system to 64 bits, especially for high-workload systems and extremely complex applications. But literally the only reason why 32-bit apps will stop working is because Apple have decided that they will no longer invest any work to keep both architectures on equal footing.

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Re: Next version of MacOS probably doesn't support Sound Man

Postby emelenjr » 15 Aug 2019, 17:42

analogika wrote:Literally the only difference you would see with a 64-bit version is the lack of the warning that the software will become unsupported.

64-bit apps do not “run better on everyone’s Macs today”. That’s just wrong. (In fact, smaller apps like the Nord apps will likely use more RAM and run slightly less efficiently in 64 bits — it’s simply not relevant for the super-light workload that these apps represent, though.)

There are technical reasons for having moved the operating system to 64 bits, especially for high-workload systems and extremely complex applications. But literally the only reason why 32-bit apps will stop working is because Apple have decided that they will no longer invest any work to keep both architectures on equal footing.


Where did you pull that information from, analogika?I think I'll stick to what Apple says about the relative merits of Apple's implementation of 64-bit vs. 32-bit architecture, thanks.

Here's some developer documentation from Apple, first created in 2004 and last revised in 2012 according to the revision history.: https://developer.apple.com/library/archive/documentation/Darwin/Conceptual/64bitPorting/intro/intro.html#//apple_ref/doc/uid/TP40001064-CH205-TPXREF101
It talks about the transition to 64-bit. Note that this documentation was written at a time when 32-bit and 64-bit apps were assumed to be able to coexist, but it's illustrative of just how long this transition has been in progress. Admittedly, some of that documentation is over my head because I'm not a developer, but Apple is quite good at explaining technical concepts to the layperson. At least I think so.

There's a section in there asking "Should you recompile...?" but that's a moot point now because modern app developers MUST recompile. You're correct in that, as recently as 2012, Apple indicated that there were some performance tradeoffs, but Apple doesn't indicate anywhere in that documentation that those tradeoffs are common with smaller apps. Marvel at this sentence from the section on performance-critical applications: "As a general rule, 64-bit Intel executables run somewhat more quickly unless the increased code and data size interact badly (performance-wise) with the CPU cache." Nord allegiance aside, I wouldn't say that a tiny app for transferring data between the Nord and the Mac is a "performance-critical app," critical though the app may be to our Nord performances. 8-)

At the bottom of that first section, there's this, too:
A 64-bit app can consume significantly more memory than a 32-bit app. For this reason, it is tempting to continue to ship 32-bit apps. However, this is usually not the right thing to do.

In OS X v10.6 and later, most built-in apps are 64-bit. The first time you run a 32-bit application, all of the 32-bit framework slices must be loaded into memory. This means that loading older, 32-bit-only applications causes significant memory pressure, particularly on computers with limited RAM. This often outweighs the additional memory impact caused by larger data structures.


I get it. I'm on a 2013 MacBook Pro with only 8 GB of RAM, and DAW apps I use put a strain on my laptop.

App developers used to ship Universal Binaries, containing either a combination of PowerPC and Intel architecture, or a combination of 32-bit Intel and 64-bit Intel architecture, depending on where we are in Apple history. Nowadays, leaving aside performance tradeoffs with larger apps that are processor and RAM hogs, an app that only has 64-bit innards in it is generally going to perform better on Apple's 64-bit OS. According to Apple.

But, by all means, continue.
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Re: Next version of MacOS probably doesn't support Sound Man

Postby maurizio » 15 Aug 2019, 17:55

analogika wrote:
64-bit apps do not “run better on everyone’s Macs today”. That’s just wrong. (In fact, smaller apps like the Nord apps will likely use more RAM and run slightly less efficiently in 64 bits — it’s simply not relevant for the super-light workload that these apps represent, though.)


While what you say on memory footprint is true, what you says for 64bit application is false, for the following reason: there are differences between the i386 and amd64 other than the use of 64 ints and addresses, in particular concerning the number of general purpose register (that are a bottleneck in the i386) that make any software running faster compiled for amd64 than i386. This doesn’t necessarily means that the difference will be visible with the Nord software, but if I remember correctly is usually around 10-15%.

About Apple, they have the tendency to not support legacy, and as an IT guy, i see the advantages, for them and for the users; if you have a legacy software problem, better not update the OS :)

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Re: Next version of MacOS probably doesn't support Sound Man

Postby Schorsch » 15 Aug 2019, 18:19

emelenjr wrote:At the bottom of that first section, there's this, too:
A 64-bit app can consume significantly more memory than a 32-bit app. For this reason, it is tempting to continue to ship 32-bit apps. However, this is usually not the right thing to do.

In OS X v10.6 and later, most built-in apps are 64-bit. The first time you run a 32-bit application, all of the 32-bit framework slices must be loaded into memory. This means that loading older, 32-bit-only applications causes significant memory pressure, particularly on computers with limited RAM. This often outweighs the additional memory impact caused by larger data structures.


I get it. I'm on a 2013 MacBook Pro with only 8 GB of RAM, and DAW apps I use put a strain on my laptop.


Are you really using the Nord Sound Manager permanently/over a long period of time like one does when working with a DAW? I for myself need the Nord Sound Manager only when loading/removing Programs, Samples etc., which is done quite quickly and by far not every day. I can imagine that the strain which is put on my computer is just for the short time where I really need to use Nord Sound Manager, isn't it the same for you?
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Re: Next version of MacOS probably doesn't support Sound Man

Postby cgrafx » 15 Aug 2019, 18:40

The Nord Sound Manager is not a High-performance software tool. It does not move or process significant amounts of data and the transferring of info to and from your instrument will not be improved by moving to 64-bit. As of yet it won't even benefit from access to larger file sizes (greater than 4 gbytes) as there are currently no Nord samples, programs or resources that are larger than that limit.

This is a non-issue that affects nobody and the compatibility issue will be resolved before it becomes an issue. This entire thread is nothing more than unnecessary hand-wringing at best and trolling at worst.

Please give it a rest. Its a non-issue.

Beta software releases are just that, BETA. They are 100% NEVER intended for production environments and are specifically labeled as "USE AT YOUR OWN RISK".
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Re: Next version of MacOS probably doesn't support Sound Man

Postby emelenjr » 15 Aug 2019, 19:08

Schorsch wrote:Are you really using the Nord Sound Manager permanently/over a long period of time like one does when working with a DAW? I for myself need the Nord Sound Manager only when loading/removing Programs, Samples etc., which is done quite quickly and by far not every day. I can imagine that the strain which is put on my computer is just for the short time where I really need to use Nord Sound Manager, isn't it the same for you?


I'm not using it at all right now, but yes, when I have used it in the past, it's been for quick updates. I don't follow your point, sorry.
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Re: Next version of MacOS probably doesn't support Sound Man

Postby emelenjr » 15 Aug 2019, 19:15

cgrafx wrote:This is a non-issue that affects nobody and the compatibility issue will be resolved before it becomes an issue. This entire thread is nothing more than unnecessary hand-wringing at best and trolling at worst.

Please give it a rest. Its a non-issue.


What's with all the gaslighting in here? I'm a member of this forum. I'm a musician. I'm a Nord user—a Clavia customer. Maybe I'm the only guy on earth with a red piano and an old Mac that's running a new OS, but I'm not nobody. It's taken a while to get a response from Clavia, but Clavia did finally respond to me last week, and Clavia disagrees with you.
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