Nord User Forum

Hi everyone,

I have a Stage 2 EX which is connected to my Mac via USB. I also have a Kawai MP7 that is connected to the NS2 via a MIDI lead (MP7 out to NS2 in). For the last couple of years I have had no issues with this setup but since upgrading to Logic X and OS X Sierra, I have experienced dropped note off messages when playing the MP7 through the NS2. This causes hanging nots for some AU instruments, or incorrect note lengths when recording. The NS2 itself does not exhibit any hanging notes, only the software instruments in Logic. I can replicate the issue only by playing fast repetitions on the MP7.

MIDI Monitor confirms that some note off messages are not being transmitted via USB to the Mac.

Things I have tried.

• Changed the MIDI cable
• Updated the firmware of both keyboards
• Plugged the MP7 via USB into the Mac - no dropped MIDI note off messages
• Used an M-Audio Axiom Pro via MIDI into the NS2 - no dropped MIDI note off messages
• Plugged the MP7 into the Mac via MIDI through my RME interface - no dropped MIDI note off messages

From these tests it would appear that the MP7 and the NS2 are failing to correctly exchange MIDI note off messages. What I don't understand is why the change in Mac OS and/or Logic version have to do with this situation, if at all.

I'd be interested in any suggestions, including how to work around the issue. I like being able to trigger the NS2 from the MP7 rather than through Logic's MIDI routing, as this isn't dependent on the environment being set up. I could build a template in Logic to do this I suppose, but I often just run UVI Workstation standalone for my piano samples and so may not have Logic running.

Any suggestions?

The Note OFF events may not be missing. Look through the MIDI Monitor log for Note ON events with ZERO Velocity. Most synths do it that way since sending a Note ON event with zero Velocity is more efficient than sending a new Note OFF command.

Of course, that won't explain why you have hanging notes, but it's worth a look just to understand what may be going on.

Hi NightSky, that's interesting. I didn't know that. I don't see any zero velocity ON messages here though. I can replicate the event by playing a fast triplet and below is the trace. What I have noticed though, is that rather than there being a missing note OFF, it appears one of the OFF events has been misinterpreted as an ON event.

21:53:10.270 From MIDI Output Note On 1 D3 67
21:53:10.316 From MIDI Output Note Off 1 D3 127
21:53:10.353 From MIDI Output Note On 1 D3 122
21:53:10.432 From MIDI Output Note On 1 D3 127
21:53:10.527 From MIDI Output Note On 1 D3 57
21:53:10.574 From MIDI Output Note Off 1 D3 127

I'm still none the wiser as to why this might be happening though.

Cheers.

sparrowhawk wrote:Hi NightSky, that's interesting. I didn't know that. I don't see any zero velocity ON messages here though. I can replicate the event by playing a fast triplet and below is the trace. What I have noticed though, is that rather than there being a missing note OFF, it appears one of the OFF events has been misinterpreted as an ON event.

21:53:10.270 From MIDI Output Note On 1 D3 67
21:53:10.316 From MIDI Output Note Off 1 D3 127
21:53:10.353 From MIDI Output Note On 1 D3 122
21:53:10.432 From MIDI Output Note On 1 D3 127
21:53:10.527 From MIDI Output Note On 1 D3 57
21:53:10.574 From MIDI Output Note Off 1 D3 127

I'm still none the wiser as to why this might be happening though.

Cheers.

Yeah, very weird.

Does it happen when you trigger different notes, as opposed to the same note (D3 in your example)?

What's your Keyboard Trigger Point setting?

What are you using to capture the MIDI stream?

Tom

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

Hi Tom,

Yes, any key will trigger the hung notes.
Interesting - the trigger point is set to normal, but changing to either of the fast settings stops any hung notes. However, it also changes the feel of the keys of course, so that's not really a fix.
I'm using MIDI Monitor for OS X.

Cheers

sparrowhawk wrote:Hi everyone,

I have a Stage 2 EX which is connected to my Mac via USB. I also have a Kawai MP7 that is connected to the NS2 via a MIDI lead (MP7 out to NS2 in). For the last couple of years I have had no issues with this setup but since upgrading to Logic X and OS X Sierra, I have experienced dropped note off messages when playing the MP7 through the NS2. This causes hanging nots for some AU instruments, or incorrect note lengths when recording. The NS2 itself does not exhibit any hanging notes, only the software instruments in Logic. I can replicate the issue only by playing fast repetitions on the MP7.

MIDI Monitor confirms that some note off messages are not being transmitted via USB to the Mac.

Any suggestions?

So the key point here is everything worked until you upgraded to OS X Sierra.The problem is not that your keyboards are doing something different now, but that the USB interface you are using is not fully compatible with OS X Sierra, or OS X Sierra has changed the way it processes MIDI information and is dropping notes.

Your solutions are not going to be messing with your keyboard settings, but to fix your interface (either get new drivers for the MIDI interface your currently using, or get a new Midi interface that has drivers that doesn't drop notes.

Let me see if I have this correct:
(a) A traditional MIDI cable connects from the MIDI out jack on your Kawai MP7 to the MIDI in jack on your NS2.
(b) a USB cable connects from your NS2 to some interface on your MAC - a normal USB connection built into the MAC?

If this is correct, than the MIDI signal path is over traditional MIDI cable from the MP7, through some NS2 circuitry, then over a USB cable to the MAC.
You tried a different MIDI cable.
Did you try a different USB cable?

Also, how long is your MIDI cable, and how long is the USB cable?

@cgrafx The change to Sierra does seem to coincide with this issue, yes. However, both the MP7 and NS2 are Core MIDI compliant devices which do not need OEM drivers installed. Also, when I did try my RME Fireface interface, which is a Firewire interface that I now connect via a Thunderbolt adapter (and has the latest drivers installed), the problem went away. So if the root cause is with the OS or Logic, then I am reliant on Apple for a fix presumably. Your comment did cause me to try another test though. Instead of using a USB lead between the NS2 and the Mac, I went to the RME via MIDI. The hung notes were repeatable. So it does seem that only when MIDI data is being transmitted through the NS2 will the problem occur, either using the MIDI or USB interfaces. I'm running Sierra 10.12.6 (latest release) and Logic 10.2.4, which is not the latest so I will update this and see if it helps.

@harmonizer You have that correct. Direct USB connection to the Mac. I have tried different USB cables, yes (I should have listed that earlier). The MIDI cable between the two keyboards is about 0.5m, the USB cable is about 2m long.

You say you also tried different MIDI cables beteen the MP7 and NS2, correct?

Have you also electrically checked those cables and/or (as a further test) tried to send MIDI to the NS2 via the Mac+RME, connecting the MP7 via USB to the Mac and routing its incoming MIDI to the RME MIDI OUT -> NS2 then reading back what you get from NS2 USB MIDI?

Hi maxpiano, I have tried different MIDI cables, yes. I have continuity tested the cables, pins 2, 4 and 5 are connected.

I tried your additional test but either I've misunderstood your signal path or I haven't correctly set the NS2 internal MIDI routing up correctly.

Signal path I have is MP7 > Mac via USB > External Instrument in Logic set to send MIDI out via RME > MIDI cable to NS2. I can trigger sounds on the NS2, but MIDI Monitor doesn't see any messages from the NS2. Global MIDI channel set to USB 1, External section set to USB 1, Soft Thru on.

Have I got something wrong?

Cheers