Stage Classic vs NS2 ?? (Help please)

[jazzystu]

I do think Nord are amazing but in this case, I am merely irritated by the fact that they appear (well, some suggest) the EPs are partially stretched and modelled

All the Nord pianos until the XL have always been stretched. All the Nord pianos, including the XL, are looped rather than fully sampled (as is every piano in every other keyboard, except for Korg Kronos and Krome which sample the full length, and numerous Roland SuperNatural which samples only a portion and then models the rest). And not a single keyboard samples a piano at every single velocity that the human hand is capable of triggering a real piano at. Nor every possible resonance. All samples are incomplete simulations and always have been. Honestly, I find the "violation of trade description" premise pretty ridiculous.

Where did you get the impression that Nord uses modeling? I've never heard that. Since modeling is a way to get more realistic characteristics from a smaller amount of sample data, it might be cool if they did, but I don't think they do. Roland does it with SuperNATURAL pianos (FP series, RD series, Jupiter, Integra), Yamaha does it with the SCM pianos (CP1/5/50), and Korg does it with their EPs (but not APs) in the Kronos, but I don't think Nord does it anywhere in their pianos.

But as I've said before, if someone really needs better EPs, get them elsewhere, don't wait for Nord. Even if Nord comes out with a couple of 200 mb EPs tomorrow, they still may not be to your taste! And there are plenty of good EPs you can get in computer VSTs, sound modules, and other keyboards that you can trigger from your Nord today. It's great that Nord keeps coming out with updates, but you should make sure a board has the sounds you need out of the of the box on the day you buy it, because there are never any guarantees about the future. If you bought a Nord for its EPs and you don't like them, then you didn't properly eval the board before you bought it.

Can you please show this to me in writing where it says so on their website.

I am not a computer nerd. I sold my Hammond C3/Leslie 147, Rhodes Suitcase 88, Clavinet D6, Wurlitzer EP200a, Minimoog Model D and bought a nord because I read quite clearly that they had "optimised a 1976 Stage Piano for bassy response"

I am totally not with you when you say "Well, it was quite clear that everything but the XL pianos were modelled on a half sampled semi-hat off to the original".

This is totally not the case.

Since we are having an argument and it's based on facts and "what a realistic person would expect to be the case" with regards to the "advert". I'd appreciate it if you could add more than rhetoric.

Since I have the prejudice that you can't and all your input is toady bullshit, I would really like you to prove me wrong.

Over to you.

[anotherscott]

Can you please show this to me in writing where it says so on their website.

Where it says what?

I am totally not with you when you say "Well, it was quite clear that everything but the XL pianos were modelled on a half sampled semi-hat off to the original".

I didn't say anything was quite clear, I was just telling you what is the fact.

It does not say on the web site that 500 megabytes can't possibly hold 5 gigabytes worth of data (the size of a Kronos piano, which still is arguably incomplete), if that's what you mean. And while that's common sense to someone who understands something about the technology, I understand not everyone does. But it is not the job of manufacturers' web sites to teach you these things, either. Nord's descriptions of what they give you are as reasonable as everyone else's.

I once bought a home theater system that promised to bring the movie theater experience home. But alas, the screen was much smaller than a real movie theater screen, the speakers weren't as impressive, the DVD resolution was not as good as 70 mm film, and no popcorn was included. Oh well.

(BTW, there are numerous people who think Nord's pianos sound better than Kronos' anyway. Sampling every key for full length is great, but it's not a panacea for every possible imperfection in capturing the sound of the original. It's the results that matter, not how they get there.)

all your input is toady bullshit.

Ah, well..... never mind.

[Gustavo]

Raindrops on roses and whiskers on kittens
Bright copper kettles and warm woolen mittens
Brown paper packages tied up with strings
These are a few of my favorite things

That's all I have to say about this.

@Monsterjazzlicks: If you only wished to upgrade to the NS2 because of sample playback, it all really depends on if you want to have an all-in-one keyboard that is extremely portable. If not, I'd recommend you to check this out: http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/ESX1SD/ might be worth a look. Sure it is a dance-music-oriented piece of gear, but its still a sampler, plus it has a sequencer. Might be useful.

[jazzystu]

Anotherscott, this is for you.


Please please please, as you are so superior and I am so silly, as someone who has played professional piano for the last 20 years, has used all the gear which is "standard" and instead read the website of Nord who, and I quote, as this is what I was most interested in, above all the other s***:-

"EPiano 2 MkI Suitcase, Close Ideal

Mk I Suitcase built in January 1975. We optimized the mechanics and adjusted the tines to ''ideal timbre''. The volume adjustment is ''close''."

Can you please tell me what button I am meant to have pressed to know that they only used this as a guide?

You are clearly the oracle here and I am clearly missing something. I must be very silly and I must ask for your wisdom on the matter. Please to be forthcoming with this. Please do show where you get your opinion from, as I Mr In The Wrong must clearly be corrected.

So, over to you.

Since Scarbee and Neo-Soul have quite clearly managed to sample a whole Rhodes and do a much better job than Nord, whilst clearly lacking the resources to actually release a super stage piano of their own. I conclude that the above statement from Nord implies to a professional pianist that they have used the stated instrument to create a replica of their own. For £2500, this is not unreasonable.

Now, Anotherscott, before you attack my method or my conclusion, I'd like you to quite clearly state how I am wrong. When you have done this, I will join you in your position, as I am reasonable. However, my bullshit detector has gone off the scale.

Let's keep offense out of this and let our reasoning speak for itself, like our music. Eh

[Darren]

Any moderators around?

[jazzystu]

Any moderators around?

Yes. I edited my thoroughly unreasonable and awful post.

It seems we can't have an argument without resorting to insults. I am first to raise my game.

I am sorry if you read my short sighted and silly knee jerk reaction.

[anotherscott]

this is what I was most interested in, above all the other s***:-

"EPiano 2 MkI Suitcase, Close Ideal

Mk I Suitcase built in January 1975. We optimized the mechanics and adjusted the tines to ''ideal timbre''. The volume adjustment is ''close''."

Can you please tell me what button I am meant to have pressed to know that they only used this as a guide?

They didn't use it only as a guide... they accurately described the exact Rhodes they sampled, how it was adjusted, and how they sampled it. What they didn't also say is that a single key sample was stretched to cover adjacent keys instead of sampling each key separately, though certainly at the time those samples first came out, I don't think any keyboard manufacturer had come out with a Rhodes where each key was sampled, that wasn't generally within the keyboard technology of the time, and is only barely becoming so today. They also did not sample as many different velocities as, say, Neo-Soul... and again, no competing keyboards did that either. And the samples are looped, as almost all keyboard EP sounds are.

But the other important piece of this is, none of that is necessarily important! If you don't like the character of the particular EP that Nord sampled or the way they adjusted or mic'd it, you might well still not like it even if they had sampled every key. I'm among those who think that the Kurzweil sampled Rhodes sound better than Nord's... but Kurzweil ALSO do not sample each key, they ALSO do not sample many velocities, and they loop, and I doubt their total sample size for the EP is any larger than Nord's. The entire ROM sound set for all the sounds in a PC3 total just 64 mb! They just do some killer programming over there, and I think they did a better job of programming a really nice sounding EP out of limited sample resources. The individual ears, personal tastes, and programming talents of the people behind these things is just as important as the specs, probably more so. And our own tastes as users differ as well. I'm sure there are people who like the Nord EPs better than Kurzweil's.

Scarbee and Neo-Soul have quite clearly managed to sample a whole Rhodes and do a much better job than Nord

Scarbee and Neo-Soul Rhodes samples are over a gigabyte big. Even the scaled down version of the Neo-Soul Rhodes for the Yamaha Motif is 500 megabytes. Nord's "EPiano 2 MkI Suitcase, Close Ideal Mk I Suitcase" that you refer to is under 6 megabytes. (Nord's biggest EP is about 15 megabytes.) Size isn't everything (again, see Kurzweil), but it isn't entirely irrelevant either. Now, Nord certainly *can* come out with an EP with more sample resources, and hopefully they will. But I would not expect them to come out with a 500 megabyte EP, because it would take up all the piano memory in their top machines, and wouldn't even fit into their lesser ones. So I don't expect Nord to come out with anything technologically competitive with Scarbee and Neo Soul (i.e. full length samples of every key at many velocities) until they make keyboards with far greater capacities. (Of course, you can already use the far greater capacities built into your computer to trigger the Scarbee or Neo-Soul Rhodes very nicely from your Nord.)

Anyway, I think that's the best I can do to answer your question.

[Gustavo]

But I would not expect them to come out with a 500 megabyte EP, because it would take up all the piano memory in their top machines, and wouldn't even fit into their lesser ones.

Actually, I believe that if they make a Rhodes XL sample, it would probably be around the same size as the XL Pianos (even less). Take into account that Nord's compression rate for the samples is speculated to be around 1/2 or something like that. Also there are a lot of shortcuts and ways to make those smaller. Ways that probably those VSTs do not even bother to do (not to be rude to the scarbee/neo-soul people) since they do not have the need to do so. RAM and HDD are so inexpensive these days.

I want to believe the Nord guys read this forum and learn something: Even if it does not make a real difference in sound, people want a fully sampled Rhodes. I believe people get instruments like the Nords not because they sound so different or because the audience will like it all better, but because having an instrument that you love and feel connected to is very inspiring and helps you play better. Improving the Rhodes is something that has been mentioned multiple times. Some even feel like they are uninspiring compared to a real one.

Some people feel like it is a matter of programming effects and EQ, some feel its a matter of the source sound. Nord should try to appeal to the latter one. Because their product is a niche product, they should try to make everyone happy. Because of that I trust that they will eventually release new samples. Hopefully they listen to us and release XL versions of great Rhodes. It would be cool to have signature stuff like a Chick Corea Rhodes fully sampled, something Yamaha has already done.

Saludos,
Gustavo

[anotherscott]

I believe that if they make a Rhodes XL sample, it would probably be around the same size as the XL Pianos

I agree.

Take into account that Nord's compression rate for the samples is speculated to be around 1/2 or something like that. Also there are a lot of shortcuts and ways to make those smaller. Ways that probably those VSTs do not even bother to do (not to be rude to the scarbee/neo-soul people) since they do not have the need to do so.

True. Though also, the Scarbee and Neo-Soul EPs in their full versions are well over a gigabyte (I think the Neo Soul is over 2), so even clever memory optimization is not going to get all that raw data into the szie of an XL piano. (The 500 mb Motif Neo Soul is already missing a lot of the sample data, i.e. velocity layers, compared to their full version.) And Nord will certainly loop them, as all their current pianos (even XL) are looped. (How much that matters is another question, though.)

It would be cool to have signature stuff like a Chick Corea Rhodes fully sampled, something Yamaha has already done.

It's a nice illustrative example for a couple of these points. First, that piano is 400 mb (though yes, Nord might be able to compress it smaller), and second, if you read user's comments about it, not everyone is very happy with it!

And I think part of that, besides personal taste, is what people are using the Rhodes sounds for. If you are after a particular classic Rhodes sound--maybe it's just a sound you've always loved, or maybe you're in a cover band doing, for example, a lot of 70s stuff--you may have a distinct idea of the Rhodes sound you're looking for, and even a nice 400 mb sample of Chick Corea's Rhodes won't satisfy you, because it has its own distinctive sound, and doesn't sound quite like the classic Rhodes you envision. OTOH, maybe you are making original music of your own and looking for pleasing sounds that don't necessarily need to be so faithful to a well-worn sound of the past, they just need to be inspiring for you to play. In that case, Chick Corea's Rhodes sound--or for that matter the current Nord EPs!--may be just fine for you.

In the 1980s, one thing that made the DX7 popular is that it allowed players to get a kind of "Rhodes" sound without having to carry around a Rhodes that weighed a ton. By today's standards, that sound wasn't very faithful at all, but back then, it was considered to be pretty close. Probably back them, some players thought the DX7's EP sound sucked, while others thought it was fine, or may have even liked its own character. And now that sound, which was used on so many recordings of the era, has itself become a sound that some players specifically look to emulate.

And getting back to Kurweil, for the player who is looking to recapture specific sounds of the past, that's their strength. Many of their EP patches are very specifically designed to emulate EPs used in famous recordings of the 60s and 70s. So rather than calling up, say, "a 1975 Suitcase MK 1, close" you'll call up "the one that sounds like Herbie" or whatever. So it's a bit of a different philosophy, capturing not so much the sound of a particular instrument as much as the sound of particular famous recordings of that kind of instrument.

[Mr_-G-]

Out of curiosity I added up all the sizes of best quality samples for all the multisampled instruments available (i.e. all the .npno files) and that is more that 1.5GB. So without considering any future samples, the internal memory of a new NS model (if every made), should increase more than 3 times to hold everything produced so far. Whether that is likely to happen or not I have no idea at all, but 1.5GB is a lot for the kind of memory the Nords use. I guess that allowing margin for future samples it would be nice to have about 2Gb?