NORD STAGE 4 officially announced for February 16th 2023

[cgrafx]

There are EIGHT groups (families) of commands which are sent/received by a MIDI device, usually a synthesizer keyboard, sound module, computer, or other piece of hardware. In some instances, computer software will EMULATE a piece of MIDI hardware.

1. Note OFF
2. Note ON
3. Polyphonic key pressure
4. Control change
5. Program change
6. Monophonic key (channel) pressure
7. Pitch bend
8. System exclusive (usually GLOBAL commands affecting the entire device)

A MIDI command consists of a series of numbers which when received by a device through a serial cable (or virtual connection made with software) will cause the device to do something, for example: play a note, change the sound (program), turn a note off, etc.

[maxpiano]

That's fine cgrafx, but not sure I get what has it to do with the discussion here (?), we were specifically talking on how Note ON/OFF (1 and 2 of your list) are generated/managed when in presence of a triple sensor keybed.

The fact is that triple sensor was introduced mainly to allow more accurate repetitions when playing digital pianos, in the case where you don't fully release the key (and in a real piano this means you don't let the damper fully stop the strings), so the Piano soudn generator can react accordingly; but triple sensor detection then it can be used also to improve the organ (virtual contacts) or even by a synth (for example if there would be a setting where middle contact may not retrigger the envelopes, but applications can be many).

The Kawai MIDI implementation of this behaviour (a Note ON at first full strike, then every middle contact retrigger generates a new Note ON without a Note OFF and all OFFs are sent only when the key is fully released i.e. upper contact is reopened) is probably the most correct one, because it enables the sound engine to differentiate when the same key is fully released or not.

The question is whether NS4 will recognize and handle this type of sequence properly or not, overall or at least at Piano section level.

[Valpurgis]

You are partially correct then, with Kawai implementation as far as I remember you don't miss notes (I used a VPC1 with the NS2C some years ago) you just trigger new ones, or maybe at the time I switched triple sensor off on the VPC (you can do that) when using it as master, not sure and I don't own the VPC any more to test. Any VPC user here that can test for us?

I have tested with a Kawai MP11 where the repetitions does not trigger new notes on the NS3 and Nord comfirmed my findings after sending them a midifile of the output from the MP11. Thats the background for my hope they have made a change.

[cgrafx]

That's fine cgrafx, but not sure I get what has it to do with the discussion here (?), we were specifically talking on how Note ON/OFF (1 and 2 of your list) are generated/managed when in presence of a triple sensor keybed.

Because multiple people have made the mistake of relating triple sensors and MIDI. They do not have anything to do with each other. The fact that the Kawai keyboard has a triple sensor and generators multiple "MIDI ON" events does not mean that NON-Triple sensor keyboards or other MIDI devices don't generate multiple "NOTE ON" events. It only means that particular Kawai implementation happens to.

The fact is that triple sensor was introduced mainly to allow more accurate repetitions when playing digital pianos, in the case where you don't fully release the key (and in a real piano this means you don't let the damper fully stop the strings), so the Piano soudn generator can react accordingly; but triple sensor detection then it can be used also to improve the organ (virtual contacts) or even by a synth (for example if there would be a setting where middle contact may not retrigger the envelopes, but applications can be many).

Yes, but that is part of the internal keyboard design and doesn't have anything to do with MIDI.

The Kawai MIDI implementation of this behaviour (a Note ON at first full strike, then every middle contact retrigger generates a new Note ON without a Note OFF and all OFFs are sent only when the key is fully released i.e. upper contact is reopened) is probably the most correct one, because it enables the sound engine to differentiate when the same key is fully released or not.

The question is whether NS4 will recognize and handle this type of sequence properly or not, overall or at least at Piano section level.

There is NO MIDI specification relating to triple sensors.

So if you want to have a discussion about if Nord should change the way they manage MIDI traffic with multiple "NOTE ON" messages thats fine, but that has NOTHING to do with the internals of a keyboard with a Triple Sensor keybed.

For that matter you don't even really know if the issue is that Nord isn't processing consecutive "Note On" events the way you want them to, but could also be they aren't processing the MIDI stream fast enough to catch the multiple "Note on" events in close proximity. Or perhaps they aren't processing the Running Status information and the Kawai doesn't actually send multiple "Note On" messages but just a single "Note on" followed by a stream of "Note" data.

Again all of these are valid questions, but NONE of them have anything to do with the physical hardware containing a triple sensor keybed.

[maxpiano]

@cgrafx: I think we are saying the same thing, just one point where I I slightly disagree

So if you want to have a discussion about if Nord should change the way they manage MIDI traffic with multiple "NOTE ON" messages thats fine, but that has NOTHING to do with the internals of a keyboard with a Triple Sensor keybed.

it has to do also with the internals meaning with the logic by which each keyboard converts what it detects out of a triple contact keybed into MIDI OUT messages (so also how NS4 does that and not just how it treats the receiving of multiple Note ON, because otherwise you'll have a problem when MIDI recording it and then playing back) and here the problem is: there is no MIDI standard about this, so it should probably up to MIDi.org to issue it (and to me, imho, it should follow the Kawai implementation, for the reasons I wrote about above)

[cgrafx]

@cgrafx: I think we are saying the same thing, just one point where I I slightly disagree

So if you want to have a discussion about if Nord should change the way they manage MIDI traffic with multiple "NOTE ON" messages thats fine, but that has NOTHING to do with the internals of a keyboard with a Triple Sensor keybed.

it has to do also with the internals meaning with the logic by which each keyboard converts what it detects out of a triple contact keybed into MIDI OUT messages (so also how NS4 does that and not just how it treats the receiving of multiple Note ON, because otherwise you'll have a problem when MIDI recording it and then playing back) and here the problem is: there is no MIDI standard about this, so it should probably up to MIDi.org to issue it (and to me, imho, it should follow the Kawai implementation, for the reasons I wrote about above)

It could just as easily be a two sensor keyboard which can also generate additional Note information in either Note On messages or just additional Note information. You don't have to have a Triple Sensor implementation to do that.

[Hlaalu]

cragfx: it's not that the triple sensor thing is "inherently" related to MIDI, we all get that, but it's true that the implementation of triple sensor technology (which seems more and more common nowadays) will make multiple note-on messages without note-off in between the norm, whereas in the 2 sensor world (we mostly have been living in so far) they were the exception.

You don't come up with a standard way to handle something if that's an unintended exception, but you will eventually have to if that becomes the norm. So the MIDI standard will either have to adapt to it, or this feature will only work internally and not over MIDI.

[cgrafx]

cragfx: it's not that the triple sensor thing is "inherently" related to MIDI, we all get that, but it's true that the implementation of triple sensor technology (which seems more and more common nowadays) will make multiple note-on messages without note-off in between the norm, whereas in the 2 sensor world (we mostly have been living in so far) they were the exception.

You don't come up with a standard way to handle something if that's an unintended exception, but you will eventually have to if that becomes the norm. So the MIDI standard will either have to adapt to it, or this feature will only work internally and not over MIDI.

You're viewing the world from a narrow perspective. MIDI is not relegated to just keyboards. its used all over the place for all kinds of instruments and controllers. Multiple "Note On" or lack of "Note Off" is not a new problem and has been around for a long time.

The problem you are discussing is specifically a MIDI implementation problem and one that maybe/probably should be addressed, but its a general MIDI issue.

My issue/concern is in incorrectly talking about Triple Sensors and MIDI as if they are connected and that somehow there is some Triple Sensor MIDI implementation or standard which there is not.

These types of issues have been going on for more than a decade, they are not some recent occurrence with the introduction of triple-sensor keyboards.

All of problems listed below are related to MIDI implementations having problems with MIDI data streams that are somehow missing a "Note Off" command, which conversely means they are getting multiple "Note On" or a single "Note On" followed by a string of "Note" data, or in some cases just receiving MIDI data faster than they can process.
Apr 10, 2017 - Synthesia plays well midi file without any note off event?
Feb 7, 2014 - MIDI Sequence, Note on commands not always followed by Note Off...
Jul 22, 2016 — There is a good reason why "note off" messages are sometimes sent as "note on with velocity zero" messages. It reduces the amount of data ...
Aug 26, 2014 - skipping/cutting off midi notes during playback - So far I've only been playing back the midi with soundfonts that are loaded ... that ignore note-off messages like percussion instruments.

[alcools]

I’m sad with this new Stage 4: if you are using (like me) 2 Extern sections on your NS3, you will only have 1 synth layer with the NS4. I fact, to benefit from the new third synth layer, you should no longer use the Extern fonctions !

I owned all previous NS (1, 1 ex, 2, 2 ex,3) and I have to stop upgrade now for a choice of developent that consume almost no CPU (midi is very light). I hope this limitation can be fixed…

[maxpiano]

@cgrafx: I think we are saying the same thing, just one point where I I slightly disagree

So if you want to have a discussion about if Nord should change the way they manage MIDI traffic with multiple "NOTE ON" messages thats fine, but that has NOTHING to do with the internals of a keyboard with a Triple Sensor keybed.

it has to do also with the internals meaning with the logic by which each keyboard converts what it detects out of a triple contact keybed into MIDI OUT messages (so also how NS4 does that and not just how it treats the receiving of multiple Note ON, because otherwise you'll have a problem when MIDI recording it and then playing back) and here the problem is: there is no MIDI standard about this, so it should probably up to MIDi.org to issue it (and to me, imho, it should follow the Kawai implementation, for the reasons I wrote about above)

It could just as easily be a two sensor keyboard which can also generate additional Note information in either Note On messages or just additional Note information. You don't have to have a Triple Sensor implementation to do that.

You can do it even without a keyboard at all or multiple keyboards on the same channel, MIDI protocol doesn't prevent that but the problem remains: how should the generator handle that and based on which logic?

With the triple sensor keybed otoh you must generate multiple Note ON, if you want to render in terms of MIDI what's happening mechanically (this is the relationship) or maybe you are suggesting a different way we are not getting?

(we are going a little OT, maybe this discussion would be worth a dedicated thread )