Stage 3 Rivals?

[anotherscott]

* YC has simultaneous drawbars and LED indicators (a given NS3 will have either one or the other, but never both... and related, on the NS3's that have the LEDs like the 88 model, adjusting them with the up/down buttons is more awkward that being able to adjust them with the YC's drawbar sliders)

Added this to the spreadsheet. In my view, I think we have two different interfaces that you can get used to. Of course you can have a preference. In this case, I don't see it as a matter of better or worse, just different. Nord is already including physical drawbars in cheaper models so there's must be a solid reason for this to happen which I don't know as of now.

The advantage of LEDs over (non-motorized) drawbars is that they are automatically in sync with the current settings, but the Nord trade-off of reducing your manipulation options to the up-down buttons is huge. Yamaha did a "best of both worlds" by giving you the LED indicators to show the current settings AND the instant responsive manipulation of sliders rather than up and down buttons. Nord gives you only one or the other in any given model (they provide the drawbars on the models designed for more organ-focussed players, i.e. the ones with the waterfall actions, but then you lose the instant visual sync with presets, while Yamaha gives a player both... you see the setting, but you can still instantly move it to exactly wherever you prefer it to be, move it at the exact rate you want to move it, grab/manipulate a handful at once...).

* YC has looper

Looper Delay you mean? I didn't find any other reference.

Yes. See the video at from 10:30 to 13:00 -- You can essentially generate your own multi-sound backing tracks on the fly, and then play over them.

* the FM instrument sounds on the YC are actually generated by FM, rather than being sampled versions (most notably the FM EP sounds, though the YC also includes classic FM sounds like the DX7-style basses, bell sounds, harmonica, brass, strings, guitar, etc., actually generated via FM)

That is not completely accurate. Even there are DX7 Sampled Sounds in the Nord, the synth is capable of doing FM. You can even see quite a few FM presets.

While the Nord does have some FM synthesis capability, it does not have anything like the FM engine of a DX7, it has a completely different implementation. It cannot create those DX7-types of sounds. That's why Nord's versions of DX7-style sounds would have to be sampled, even though the board has some FM capabilities. Yamaha's versions of DX-7 styles sounds are actually created with FM. They sound and play more authentically than sampled versions do.

The classic DX7 offered 32 algorithms, each with six operators.

NS3 FM offers a single 2-operator algorithm, and a single 3-operator algorithm.

The Nord is capable of FM sounds you could not get out of a DX7, because its operators can employ different waveforms. But you can't typically duplicate DX7 sounds using the Stage's FM architecture. 2 algorithms with a max of 3 operators cannot recreate what can be done with 32 algorithims of 6 operators.

Though the Nord has an alternate patch selection mode that gives you 2-keypress access to 25 patches at a time (but then you have NO single-button preset recall function).

I'm a little lost here.

Nord has two patch select modes. The standard mode uses 5 buttons, where you can select a program by pressing a button, but you have to scroll/page through in order to get to any additional programs. The numeric pad mode converts the 5 buttons to a number pad where you enter two digits to recall a Program. You can no longer select Programs with a single button press, but instead of having quick access to only 5 programs, you now have almost-as-quick access to 25 programs, selectable not with a single button press, but with two button presses.

In standard mode, the 5 buttons bring up a current set of sounds 1, 2, 3, 4, or 5.

In numeric more, the 5 buttons are used in pairs, and can bring up sounds 1-1, 1-2, 1-3, 1-4, 1-5, 2-1, 2-2, 2-3, 2-4, 2-5 etc. up to 5-5.

To be honest, I think that there is quite a consensus around Nord Organs being one of the top digital organs out there. And after playing around with Nord and Yamaha VCM at the store I subscribe to that idea. Comparison videos can also be checked on the internet and I think the difference is quite clear.

In terms of tonewheel organ emulation, my feeling--which I think is not uncommon--is that the organ tones are as good or likely even better on the Yamaha... BUT the Leslie simulation effect is far better on the Nord. So unless maybe you're going out to an external pedal (or real Leslie), yes, I'd pick the Nord. As for whose emulation of Farfisa and Vox organs is more faithful, I don't know. Though Nord also has pipe organ.

Again, the Nord has FM capabilities and can generate organ sounds via that method.

Again, it can't generate the FM sounds that the Yamaha can, its implementation is completely different. Also, the FM organs on the Yamaha use 8 drawbars for timbre adjustment and real-time control. It is pretty much moot because Nord simply uses a different method for their transistor organ emulations (neither inherently better nor worse, AFAIK). But to imply you could emulate Yamaha's implementation with the FM section of the Nord is not right. (BTW, Yamaha's implementation is not even based on the 6-operator DX7 architecture, it appears to be based on a superset of that, the 8-operator architecture used in the Montage and MODX, since 8 of the 9 sliders come into play when using the drawbars on these organs.)

You say the Yamaha uses 1.5 GB of samples, I'm curious where that figure came from.

I was checking again and I found out that the [anchor= goto=http://forums.musicplayer.com/ubbthread ... /3079727OS]seems to be 1.1GB,[/anchor] so there is where the assumption comes from.
Let's be honest. If the sample memory of YC was superior, Yamaha would be announcing it everywhere. I think in that area Nord has way more memory.

Having less than a Nord Stage 3 is not necessarily the reason they don't announce how much memory it has, especially since the YC is market/price positioned more against much cheaper boards than the NS3. But I agree, it likely has less memory than a NS3. There's also the variable of how much of its memory is still empty awaiting the possibility of future updates. As shipped, whatever memory the YC and CP had wasn't full (or else they wouldn't have been able to add more sample data in an update). That also complicates estimating the spec, the amount of actual available sample data will likely increase over time. Though again, I don't think it's a terribly meaningful comparison in the first place, since the boards' use their memory in such different ways. Which brings us to...

I think comparing memory specs can be useful, for example, on those boards where you're loading your own samples, or when you're comparing two boards that have otherwise similar architectures, but in the context of boards that have entirely different ways of using the memory, comparing how much memory they have I think can be misleading.

I don't think it's misleading at all, You can have more multi-sampled pianos on the Nord, that's a fact and I think it's important

The fact that you can have more multi-sampled pianos on the Nord is significant, I wouldn't dispute that as a Nord advantage. That's a different point than the Nord having more memory.

Similarly, the fact that you have more multi-sampled NON-piano sounds on the Yamaha is a Yamaha advantage. That would be a different point than saying that the Yamaha has less memory.

I think what is misleading is to compare the ability to store synth patches( by the way, Nord can store up to 400, so still wins) to sample memory. That is, in my view, misleading.

I was not making that comparison. What I was saying was that both boards have sounds that take no sample memory (e.g. the organ and non-sample based synth sounds), and sounds which require sample memory on one board may not require sample memory on the other, or vice versa. it's one of the reasons it's hard to compare sonic capabilities based on the spec of how much memory they have. This just gets back to my general thought that comparing what they can do and how well they do it is more relevant than comparing the underlying tech.

You say that the Nord has more piano polyphony, but it's the opposite, 120 vs 128 on the Yamaha.

You have a point.
You have to note that 128 AWM2 Polyphony is shared with VCM.
So, in an Organ + Piano scenario, where the Nord has full on the organ and 120 on the piano, we can see there is a huge a difference.

In the real world, though, even with 128 shared in a Yamaha Piano+Organ split (AWM2 + VCM), I think audibly hitting a polyphony limit would be highly unlikely, especially relative to what I think would be more common Nord scanerios. Which brings me to...

As you say, it really depends on the particular configuration to see which one would peak.
I think there are many scenarios where the Nord would be a winner, though.

Yes, the amount of total available polyphony will vary depending on the sound combination. But when it comes to the audible ramifications of that, I don't think you'd ever hear a dropout on any 2-sound combination on the Yamaha, which always has a minimum of 128 available in any combination. OTOH, any two-sound combination on the Nord that doesn't include an organ or piano library sound will have just 34 polyphony, and I think hitting that 34 limit is more likely than hitting Yamaha's minimum of 128. IOW, yes, there are scenarios where Yamaha's available polyphony is less, but I'm not sure there are audible consequences. The only scenarios where Nord is the winner (i.e. combinations with a piano or an organ) are still scenarios where the Yamaha probably has sufficient polyphony that you would not hear the difference. The reverse (e.g. all the other 2-sound combinations where Yamaha has 128+ and Nord has 34) is what is more likely to create an audible consequence. 3-sound combinations are not as clear-cut, where splitting 3 non-FM sounds on the Yamaha yields 128 polyphony, and a 3-sound combination on the Nord which includes a piano, would have a bit more at 154... but still with only 34 available for the two non-piano sounds.

You say Nord has an advantage of two dedicated rotary speakers, I'm not sure what you're saying

There are two pannels, A and B with a dedicated instance (not an insertion effect) of the rotary speaker.

That's still just one rotary effect, not two. You can't put one rotary effect on one panel, and a different rotary effect on the other. Nor can you put one rotary effect on one sound, and a second rotary effect on another (something you can do on the Yamaha).

there are some effects that Nord is implementing separately, what I call, "dedicated", that Yamaha is putting as insertion effects. I think that, on the first place, that reduces the actual number of simultaneous effects you can have, and on second place, they will never be as good as a dedicated instance.

There is no inherent advantage to a "dedicated" effect over an "insert" effect.

in fact, the Yamaha has many more speed, balance, and acceleration options than the Nord does. But again, it's a dubious advantage, since the less flexible Nord rotary still sounds better.

It has a numeric linear settings, that doesn't mean that adding 0.1 will make a difference. I think that what Nord did here was to establish the three most common points that people uses,

Yamaha has 4 "Speed" parameters (horn fast, horn slow, rotor fast, rotor slow), each fully adjustable over a wide range. Nord has 2 "Speed" parameters (rotor and horn), each with 3 settings. Acceleration settings are similar to the speed settings. You may say this much adjustability is overkill, but some may see it as a Yamaha advantage. Though really, I only mentioned these things because you listed some of this adjustability as being a Nord advantage, where, if anything, the availability of these adjustments, if this is of concern to someone, favors the Yamaha.

You list organ swell pedal as a Nord advantage, but YC has that too. Both keyboards support two continuous pedals. On Nord, one is organ swell, and the other is definable for many functions. On the YC, both are definable for many functions, and one of the things you can define a pedal for is organ swell (it corresponds to an expression setting).

I think on the Nord, swell is more than "expression". As described by Nord..."Swell is not only a volume control - for the B3 it also changes the character of the sound in a special way."

Correct, swell is not the same as volume, but also expression is not the same as volume. One of the expression pedal settings selectable on the Yamaha corresponds to swell, in that it changes the organ's tone as well as volume. Does it sound as good (or as authentic) as Nord's implementation? I don't know. But the feature is there.