Nord User Forum

Unless you're holding down the sustain where no decent player would (that is, letting one chord ring into another non-enharmonic chord), the "using too much sustain" is probably a red herring.

Using sustain or not is a style thing. For lots of music, it's not necessary because you're playing a rhythmic part. But if you're playing nice lovely long ringing chords that should ring ... you HAVE to use the sustain pedal to get that sound.

I wish I could listen to recordings of your gigs, but unless you're really overdoing the sustain, the problem is really elsewhere. But most likely, unless FOH is an idiot, something is wrong. (Generally, with two guitarists, the problem is usually with one or both guitarists! It takes remarkably good players for two guitars to not over-play, and if they're over-playing, there's little room for keyboards anyway.)

Assuming there is a problem, re-read everything Spider said above. Better players play fewer notes! Listen to Little Feat, especially in the early years with Lowell George. 3 guitarists and a keyboard player, all playing, but none ever getting in the others' way, by careful part arrangement, and taking different approaches. Listen to the studio version of Dixie Chicken. Not many piano notes at all! Surprisingly few. A lot to learn there about "less is more."

DEFINITELY roll off your bass! I sometimes double the bass player's part, and other times play pedal notes down low (sorry, but I learned piano by listening to Paul McCartney and never got over it.) So, I make sure I am NOT competing with the bass player. Doing that will add huge mud, and yeah, especially with lots of sustain.

And as mentioned, if you're playing dense chords, especially guitar voicings in the same octaves as the guitar chords, it leads to mud (with or without sustain!) Google "jazz piano open voicing" for a primer on a different approach, which can be adapted to blues and rock, somewhat. (Not an easy fix, but something to learn anyway.)

I totally disagree with any blanket advice not to use the sustain pedal. It entirely depends on what the song needs. More to the point: LISTEN to what the other players are doing, and do NOT do the same thing, and DO NOT interfere with what they're doing. (This is one of the reasons why I love Hammond, for rock and blues. But still, I play a lot of piano and Rhodes too.)

JeffLearman wrote:and do NOT do the same thing, and DO NOT interfere with what they're doing. (This is one of the reasons why I love Hammond, for rock and blues. But still, I play a lot of piano and Rhodes too.)

Just out of curiosity, can you elaborate a bit on your experience of the Hammond sound being less invasive than the piano in this respect?

playsabadguitar wrote:

FZiegler wrote:You haven't explained what the band consists of. Neither what sort of music you are making. So hard to give any advice. If there's a bass player, you should turn down the low end on your EQ for example. It's likely that the same applies to sustain if there are more instruments in your range (guitars e.g.).

It's quite possible that the sound gets muddy in the room: If you use IEMs, take into consideration that nobody - neither your mates nor the audience - can hear the same clarity. Maybe half of it.

You have monitors but you don't hear what the public audience can hear. So don't rely on your own impressions too much: Take the sound guy seriously or try the way Tasten-Bert proposed. That's what comes to my mind.

And it is said of professional band pianists that they actually use very little sustain.

EDIT: And do you remember you already needed a new sustain pedal in spring after 3 months of use?

Haha, good memory. We are a five piece: drums, bass, two guitars, and me on keys. We are a Grateful Dead cover band.

So yes, I think you are right. My keys sound great in my IEMs, but that is not what is being heard in the audience. According to sound guy, my sustain pedal is making everything muddy. I have taken the sound guy seriously, he kind of annoys me, but I try and be a good band mate, so I listen and really work on the things he says. We played one show, where we did not do our own sound because we were one of five bands that day. The sound was really bad that day, but that day I could hear what the audience was hearing. The sound was really bad and muddy, and since I could hear it, I did naturally stop using the sustain pedal as much. But in normal shows when we have our own gear, I doubt we are that muddy, or at least i hope we aren't.

I guess the real problem is, how am I supposed to play in a way that best compliments a sound I cannot hear? Yes, maybe I need to use less sustain, but if I can't hear when it gets muddy, how do I know when to ease off of it? The only solution seems to be to just not use it at all, but that would really bum me out. I feel like I use it so effectively. It sounds great when I play alone and it sounds great in the IEMs and board recordings.

Anyways, thanks. This is helpful advice.

Why don't you try getting the front of house mix in your IEMs? That's what I do and while it takes a bit of getting used to it really helps with playing "ensemble".

Hlaalu wrote:

JeffLearman wrote:and do NOT do the same thing, and DO NOT interfere with what they're doing. (This is one of the reasons why I love Hammond, for rock and blues. But still, I play a lot of piano and Rhodes too.)

Just out of curiosity, can you elaborate a bit on your experience of the Hammond sound being less invasive than the piano in this respect?

Guitars tend to have attacks, and Hammond can be played without attacks. Also, Hammond can be played with flutey/hollow tones (like 80 0008 000) that sit in a very different sonic place than guitars. Of course, it can easily be played in ways that use up a lot of sonic space, so it's not "automatic." Careful use of the swell pedal and continuous adjustment of the tonebars to complement rather than compete with the guitars can really help (and is lots of fun.) This works great for blues and classic, rock, in my experience, especially at blues jams, which are notorious for everyone playing too loud and with too much distortion, leaving very little unused sonic space.

(Blues jams remind me of what a sailing buddy used to say about sailboat racing, especially on heavy weather days. It's like hitting yourself in the head with a hammer -- it feels so good when you stop.)

That said, there are also plenty of ways to complement rather than compete with piano, too. A classic example is high-octave chink-chink when guitars are occupying the midrange. Another is playing nice long sustain chords when they're being busy (and vice versa.)

My main point is that blaming the sustain pedal (unless used very unwisely, as I used to do as a kid until I learned better) is a huge oversimplification.

If the OP is jamming that pedal down, holding it, and playing a lot of stuff, most of the time, then well maybe FOH was right in the first place. It took me a while to learn that, as a teenager.

I'm curious, what ever happened here?

Had a quick look through the posts and there's lots of chat about telling the guy to roll off the bottom end on his keys. That's the soundy's job. If you didn't have a soundy on a gig then I kinda get what you're all saying, but if there is, then give him everything and let him do what he wants with it. That's his job.

Pedalling is something that's so often overlooked when learning your craft. If you've never properly thought about it then you may be doing it incorrectly. Like you might use one technique for playing a solo piano set but depending on a lot of things, you might want to have a completely different approach for playing in a band. As others have said - LISTEN to what's going on. It's a big part of your job in a band. Get out of the way when you should (which is most of the time in this scenario). Be the good sideman that you should be. SUPPORT the band and don't try to shine too brightly.

Using IEMs on a gig like this does have it's problems. It's the same as designing noises for live use in a home/studio scenario. They sound great over headphones or in your studio with nice monitors, but in a live situation and with other instruments, they need to be adjusted.

In isolation - your piano noise may well sound great, but in the room it may sound s***. It could also be that your piano noise - soloed - sounds great in the room, but in the mix it's just too much. That's the soundys job. The fact that he's talking about your pedalling and doing it regularly indicates that;

1 - he is actually correct and you're pedalling technique needs a bit of thought. In this scenario, I'd be interested to hear a recording after the gig and I'd be asking the guys in the band

2 - he's has a problem with your noise, and is just using the wrong words. Like, is he a keys player? If he is then maybe give it thought, if he's not then I'd be wary of his keyboard playing advice but realise that he's not happy in some respect, listen back to a live performance and talk to the other guys.

3 - he's just a dick - in this case, I'd make all the right noises - thanks man, appreciate your feedback, I'll change that up and use the f**** Josef Hoffman pedalling technique on a rock gig, you're amazing, that snare sound you're getting is pure fire you utter dick. Stuff like that.

Anyway - hope you got it sorted in the end. I always like to be the most stupid, inexperienced person on a gig because I always want to get better. But at the same time, I like to think I've got a good nose for bullshit. I think it's really important to know what you're s*** at, and equally as important - know what you're really good at but overall I think you have to be honest with yourself and take ego out of the situation.

Think about it like this: in an ensemble context, a Piano is first-and-foremost a percussive rhythm instrument. Its job is to harmonically reference the chord and GTFO so the sustained lead or vocals can be the focus. That's the beauty of piano, and why I generally dislike synth pads: for a brief instant, it calls attention to itself, and then leaves space for everything else. Holding down the sustain actually of impedes the piano's strength in this context!

This is completely different from solo piano or concerto piano where the piano is the center of attention and can be free to really flow together and do anything. But be careful, piano has the largest frequency range of any instrument ever created... which also means can obscure ANYTHING.

I think it's good practice in an ensemble to try playing without the pedal AT ALL, let your fingers do the sustain, and listen how to provide space musically when you're filling the typical role of comping. I use the pedal inversely to how a drummer plays the HiHat: default is tight, and then increase the sustain at the end of phrases to build into the next section. Yes, piano sustain is basically a drum fill.