Nord User Forum

I have given thousand suggestions here how I would improve those existing things. Of course this is rather subjective, but I must say I have had Nords quite a long time and I have seen this development. Also, I am a gigging musician who tries to get his living out of playing, so I have a very practical point of view. Still, I don't wanna repeat all my premises here. My main critic has been, that instead of real improvement or development they are satisfied with mixing their existing models. Take NP for example. NP(1) was great in its simplicity, but having some things to make it better especially the keybed (read the original wishlist for NP). Instead of going into these obvious deficiencies Clavia put there sample player and voila! we have NP2.

But what NEW I would like to see? First, all of us would welcome velocity layers to sample player, no matter what model. Well, maybe this is not new enough. I have been waiting for a new synthesizer from Clavia. (In fact I've never been a fan of Wave) Perhaps some Modular type of thing with great computer integration features...

About new sounds. Maybe I was just lucky to live the days when we got first Lady D, then Bosie and Bright grand. Before them we got those EP5 and EP6. What has happened since then? Total silencio in piano library. I don't need any goddamn rare russian synth sound from 60s... And I can see that there are other users too who are tired to ask for new e-pianos. Give us new pianos / chance to make our own (=enough velocity layers). Simple as that and this takes us back to title of this thread.

JacksonP wrote:Take NP for example. NP(1) was great in its simplicity, but having some things to make it better especially the keybed (read the original wishlist for NP). Instead of going into these obvious deficiencies Clavia put there sample player and voila! we have NP2.

The difference is that they design, build and therefore have a lot of control over the electronics... but not the keybed (which, btw, I happen to like). The sample section was a nice enhancement, for that portion of the market who felt "I would buy a Nord PIano, if only I could do a couple of things like layer strings or play LH bass." You may see it as a useless enhancement, but I'm sure others disagree. It meant they could get what they needed out of it without going to the expense or relative complication of a NS2.

The newly released Korg Kronos X is actually just a Kronos with new software, more memory and a bigger SSD drive; all of this can also be added to an existing Kronos however. But by releasing this 'new' Kronos X, they 'old' Kronos has lost some of its value, as people would much rather have a Kronos X than a Kronos (even though it is essentially the same thing).

To me the Nord Piano 2 is more like the Nord Piano Plus (or Ex, X or whatever); I think that unlike the Stage (where the 1 and 2 in my opionion differ quite a bit), adding the '2' on the end implies more than you actually get. But I'm sure NP2 owners will disagree.

As for the subject of this thread: if Clavia won't open up the npno format to end user, it would be very nice if they would at least give 3rd party sound developers the option of making (piano) sounds for the Nords. I sure wouldn't mind it if Scarbee had a go at it.

anotherscott wrote:

JacksonP wrote:Take NP for example. NP(1) was great in its simplicity, but having some things to make it better especially the keybed (read the original wishlist for NP). Instead of going into these obvious deficiencies Clavia put there sample player and voila! we have NP2.

The difference is that they design, build and therefore have a lot of control over the electronics... but not the keybed (which, btw, I happen to like). The sample section was a nice enhancement, for that portion of the market who felt "I would buy a Nord PIano, if only I could do a couple of things like layer strings or play LH bass." You may see it as a useless enhancement, but I'm sure others disagree. It meant they could get what they needed out of it without going to the expense or relative complication of a NS2.

Basically I don't feel that sample playback is (completely) useless; they just made it too simple to be effective. There're no other controls than volume and attack. It should have at least filter with cutoff and resonance *). And without bender you cannot fully use it as a lead synth (there are tons of those type of sounds!). And moreover, if you play this synth via MIDI (although I don't know even if this is possible...), it does not even respond to bender messages. Anyway to me this sample player is just very LITTLE extra like people here say, while with little more thinking it could be much more than that.

My point has been that NP2 gave us this little extra instead of improving it as a piano which was its main concept at the beginning. I have a NP(1) and I would probably have updated it to NP2 if they made those improvements said in original NP(1) wishlist. When NP2 came my NP 's value sank dramatically (they sold those last NP1s with very low price) and for me it's quite mindless to even think about selling it. Don't get me wrong, I am very happy with my NP. I just don't see any reason to go to NP2; at least Clavia lost my money

*) BTW with these Cutoff and Resonance parameters you can make "fake" velocity layers to sampled sounds. In my NS2 I use this a lot with some acoustic sounds to make them at least somehow "alive". Of course I'd like to have "real" velocity layers instead. This filter-velocity-layers are 80s tehnology.

JacksonP wrote:Basically I don't feel that sample playback is (completely) useless; they just made it too simple to be effective. There're no other controls than volume and attack. It should have at least filter with cutoff and resonance *). And without bender you cannot fully use it as a lead synth (there are tons of those type of sounds!).

Maybe they should have designed it so that the synth samples (Moog, Oberheim, Prophet, etc.) would only load into the NS2 and Wave, and not permit them to be loaded into the NP2 and NE3, to avoid these user frustrations? (Keeping in mind that building in the things you want would have raised the price.)

Of course, if someone needs the features of the NP2 plus the functionality you mention, there is the possibility of purchasing the NS2 as well.

BTW, just building in a filter and pitch bend would not necessarily allow people to use it as a lead synth. Then you'd hear, where's the portamento? Where's the LFO? Some people can use it as is, some people would find it unusable even with the enhancements you want. Since these are not custom made, most players always have to choose between models that do less than they need, and ones that do more.

(As an aside... pitch bending is not always needed for synth playing. Keith Emerson and Rick Wakeman rarely used it, but Jan Hammer used it constantly. Different playing styles.)

Not every board is designed for every player. If it doesn't have what you want, don't buy it (as indeed you did not), If enough people don't buy it, Nord will alter their direction. If people are buying it, then, whether it's right for you or not, there are people whose needs it satisfies.

I'm not saying that people can't have opinions about what Nord should do or what could make a board better. But I don't think that the fact that a board doesn't do exactly what you want is justification for all the implications that Nord is making bad decisions or coming out with flawed products.

well said scott!!

Yes, this is a place for giving ideas of Clavia products and justifiable critic too, right? Basically I am very happy with both products I have, NS2 and NP(1). I just happen to feel that after those two products Clavia has lost their curse in development. Instead of really developing things further they drop those "little extras" to existing boards to be interesting to some people and useless to others, and then they can give a label of "NP2" with big marketing.

Still I feel that most new NP2 owners would welcome those mentioned features: filter and bender via midi. And LFO of course, but first and most wanted things first; let's not get too greedy. And for sure filter isn't only for leads; It's very very useful with pads / strings also. I normally use lot more filter with pad sounds than volume, when I use it under my piano sound. Much more live and musical. And hey, these aren't any way mystical features and for sure not very pricey to implement. IMO Clavia should at least follow this way of thinking: put X (sample player in this case) into the model with enough or should I say necessary features or leave it out and save money develop some other thing. I am sure that at least some percent (smaller or bigger) of new NP2 users will be disappointed and frustrated with their new instrument when they little by little find out its limitations. Then they go to sell their NP2 further to buy NS2 or NS2EX or whatever. And big chief in Clavia will rub his hands; a big wheel of capitalism keeps turning... I may sound cynical but main thing is to sell thing to people and then make them again hungry for a new bargain soon enough. They are always balancing to make good-products vs. not-too-good-products. Of course there's a small percent of buyers who are careful and critical (like myself) but they don't need to take too much care for those cause majority will buy their products anyway.

...And I know, this debate is going nowhere: some people see it as I see it. Others feel as their duty to defend Clavia's decisions and products. Both poles are accepted of course.

And finally back to thread topic: I'd like them to open .npno format but I don't think this will happen at least in near future! They don't wanna give us too much power to modify their products or should I say make them too good.

JacksonP wrote:Still I feel that most new NP2 owners would welcome those mentioned features: filter and bender via midi.

Neither of us knows how many NP2 owners would care about it. But as far as being able to bend pitch over MIDI from some other keyboard... If someone is putting a second board with a pitch bend wheel over the NP2, odds are good that that board, itself, has synth sounds he can bend pitch on anyway, right?

I think it may be worth remembering that it is called "Nord Piano." But I've mentioned before, you can bend pitch with a $50 Behringer US600 pedal. There are also filter pedals. So at least there are solutions available that may work for some people. It would be nice if the NP2 would let you pan its piano and synth sounds left and right, so each could be sent out its own output for external processing. I don't think it can do that.

JacksonP wrote:these aren't any way mystical features and for sure not very pricey to implement.

Really, it's impossible to guess at what it would have cost to implement those things within this model's architecture. At any rate, if any additional hardware is required at all, not free.

anotherscott wrote:

JacksonP wrote:Still I feel that most new NP2 owners would welcome those mentioned features: filter and bender via midi.

Neither of us knows how many NP2 owners would care about it. But as far as being able to bend pitch over MIDI from some other keyboard... If someone is putting a second board with a pitch bend wheel over the NP2, odds are good that that board, itself, has synth sounds he can bend pitch on anyway, right?

First, I am sure that some people don't miss it just because they don't know what they miss. Those who use a lot pads and strings probably would like to have more expressivity, more musical sound. Second, if you need second board with sounds, then this sample playback device is totally useless. With these mentioned features (Bender via midi, filter, possibly lfo) you could take a simple midiboard (perhaps even those minikeyboars which might fit over NP's board) and take FULL advantage of this great library of Clavia. All this would cost 50-200 euros. I think there ARE people who would like this opportunity.

Once more I have to repeat my main point: IMO this synth is too simple cause it cannot serve this kind situation and give us enough expressivity. Similarly new Electro would have been much better if they just made it bitimbral (individual organ and piano). Instead of going back with these real drawbars, this bitimbrality would have made it really different beast. NP's synth isn't same quality as its great piano part and this is a shame. It's just "a little extra" and not worth upgrading to it from NP(1).

JacksonP wrote:

anotherscott wrote:as far as being able to bend pitch over MIDI from some other keyboard... If someone is putting a second board with a pitch bend wheel over the NP2, odds are good that that board, itself, has synth sounds he can bend pitch on anyway, right?

First, I am sure that some people don't miss it just because they don't know what they miss. Those who use a lot pads and strings probably would like to have more expressivity, more musical sound.

Pads and strings aren't so commonly used with pitch bend (it's more commonly used with solo and lead sounds), though it can be useful. Though again, you can bend pitch (and create other synthy effects) with cheap external boxes. Cheaper than the controller you're talking about adding.

JacksonP wrote:Second, if you need second board with sounds, then this sample playback device is totally useless.

Well, of course that doesn't make sample playback useless for people who don't want to buy a second keyboard, which is a big part of the market too. But more to the point, you really think that the sample playback functions of the NP2 are useless if you have a second keyboard with sounds? That's absurd. If someone puts a Moog Little Phatty or a Roland Gaia or a Micro-Korg above his NP2, there is no point to being able to layer strings with piano? Come on. Even if you pick a second board that has sounds that overlap the Nord functionality (perhaps a 61-key unweighted rompler/workstation to put over the weighted action piano), that doesn't make the sample playback in the NP2 totally useless by any means. It gives you access to a number of unique or hard-to-get sounds of its own, it gives you the ability to load and playback your own custom samples, it gives you the ability to easily split and layer sounds on the piano in a way that MIDI'ing to your second board does not.

And really, once you say you want to add a second board, personally, I'd much rather add a second board that brings some interesting sounds of its own to the table, rather than just a controller, even if it means I may not use as many of the piano's extra sounds as I might have otherwise.

JacksonP wrote:With these mentioned features (Bender via midi, filter, possibly lfo) you could take a simple midiboard (perhaps even those minikeyboars which might fit over NP's board) and take FULL advantage of this great library of Clavia.

IMO, you still wouldn't be able to take full advantage of the synth sounds as you describe, because a lot of lead sounds (the kind you want pitch bend and LFO mod for) desperately need portamento to play well as primary synth lead sounds. At least you can add pedals to get some of those other fx... not portamento, though.

JacksonP wrote:All this would cost 50-200 euros.

I assume you mean that's what it would cost someone to add a controller. But you've left out what some of that might add to the price of the Nord itself. The only one that might not make the NP more expensive is recognizing pitch bend over MIDI. I don't know whether there are any technical issues that make that tricky. If it can be done in software, and doesn't add to the cost, I'd certainly have no objection to it being there, though I don't think it would be as widely used you think. Regardless, the other things you mention would require hardware and add cost to the NP.

(Also, I think the market of people who would pay anywhere near 200 Euros for a soundless controller for the sole purpose of being able to bend pitch on their Nord Piano would be rather small!)

JacksonP wrote: IMO this synth is too simple

It is a piano. If someone needs a real synth, they can buy the NS2, or something from someone else. The bonus synth features of the piano are well suited to some things, and not others. The fact that it has any real synth sounds in it at all is really, I think, just a by-product of the fact that they use the same file format for their samples as they do in their synths, so there was no way to give you pads and strings without giving you access to Moog lead sounds, to which the instrument is otherwise not so well suited. Maybe Nord could have devised a scheme such that those kind of synth sounds simply weren't loadable into the Piano, which would have blunted this criticism, but I'm glad they didn't.

JacksonP wrote: Similarly new Electro would have been much better if they just made it bitimbral (individual organ and piano). Instead of going back with these real drawbars, this bitimbrality would have made it really different beast.

I agree that would be killer. But we don't know what it would cost, either. And just as there are people who wouldn't buy the E3 because it's mono-timbral, there are people who wouldn't buy it because it didn't have drawbars. (Personally, I'd want drawbars AND bitimbral operation!)

JacksonP wrote: NP's synth isn't same quality as its great piano part and this is a shame. It's just "a little extra" and not worth upgrading to it from NP(1).

People are making a similar complaint about the "Kronos X" -- that it's not worth upgrading from the Kronos. In both cases I think what people are missing is that the primary market for the new model is NOT people who bought the old models, for whom it would be a relatively minor upgrade. The primary market is people who do NOT own the earlier incarnation, to make the model more attractive to new purchasers.

BY DEFINITION, people who were happy with buying the original Nord PIano didn't feel they really needed splits and layers, or else they wouldn't have bought it. So this market is pre-defined as one of people for whom the NP2 will have minimal appeal. However, there were a whole bunch of people who would not consider buying a Nord PIano because they couldn't split/layer a string/pad sound or play LH bass on it, for example. Now these people can consider an NP2. The fact that they did this by giving access to the entire Sample Library, which happens to open up even more capabilities than that, is a bonus.

It's funny... people complain when a new model comes out that makes them wish they didn't buy the older model, and people complain when a new model comes out that makes them perfectly happy with having bought their older model.