Output level. Again.

[Hambone]

Well I've finally gotten myself some powerful, high quality professional PA speakers and a mixer, so I can now graduate from merely using headphones. I seem to be having the same low level problem.

So far, I've only set it up this way. Outputs 1 and 2> a TS mono cable each channel> a JDI Stereo Duplex direct box> balanced cables> the Stereo inputs of a Soundcraft mfxi8 mixer.

The levels of the NS2 are -Main level and instrument levels both almost all the way up. Now I have to turn the gain of the mixer input all the way up to get a passable level. This still produces really low levels on the meter and a pretty unpleasant and annoying hiss through the PA with each note played. The hiss dies away between notes. I have not tried any other instruments with this set up, but a CD player playing through the mixer has plenty high of a signal with a much lower hiss.

[Hambone]

I should NOT have to add a preamp to this to get a proper, low noise level! I'll try this again later with just the DI and without the mixer, but I don't really expect any real difference in results.

[mjbrands]

I should NOT have to add a preamp to this to get a proper, low noise level! I'll try this again later with just the DI and without the mixer, but I don't really expect any real difference in results.

I've never had to add a preamp to get a proper, low noise signal level on my Nords (Stage 2, Lead 3, Wave, Lead 2X). I was only running fairly short connections through my home studio though.

[Hambone]

Mine are short too. 10 ft. TS unbalanced mono runs out of the NS2 to the direct box. And the. Another 6 ft. of balanced cables to the mixer inputs. There are then 20 ft. balanced XLR's from the mixer to the speakers. The level registers on the very low end of the meter with this, well below the 0 decibel level.

With the CD player signal into the board, I easily get the meter to go into the ideal range right around 0 decibels on the meter with it's input knob turned fairly low.

[Hambone]

I'm wondering if folks who don't seem to have this issue get no noticeable hiss, or if it is just one that they can ignore easily enough or don't notice? I never experienced the noise/hiss when using my headphones through my RME Babyface interface. But that has a high end preamp in it with a LOT of gain available on input. I'm trying to relegate the use of the Babyface interface to just be for recording purposes so as to avoid having those unnecessary AD/DA conversions in the signal chain. Trying to keep that all analog, all the way up to the amplified speakers.

[Hambone]

Hi Hambone,

These issues you relate are not common and cause me to wonder whether perhaps there is a problem with your instrument. Where are you located? Please drop me a line at my work email address so that we can discuss the possibility of having a service tech examine your instrument.

Pablo
pablo.mastodon@AmericanMusicandSound.com

[mjbrands]

I'm wondering if folks who don't seem to have this issue get no noticeable hiss, or if it is just one that they can ignore easily enough or don't notice?

If I'd have to guess for my situation, I'd guess it is the second. Hiss during recording has never bothered me enough for me to measure it. I've had noise issues, where equipment picked up 'noise' generated by other equipment, such as when the cable from a video card to a monitor was lying parallel to the (line-level) cable from my interface to my (powered) speakers. Switching to a balanced connection got rid of that for me, since the balanced signal is much less susceptible to picking up noise from the environment. Of course, it has no effect whatsoever on noise already present in the signal, such as that caused by AD convertors, digital operations (i.e. filtering), etc. I (like to think) have a pretty good ear for artifacts (clipping, distortion, compression artifacts, etc.) but noise generally doesn't bother me that much.

... avoid having those unnecessary AD/DA conversions in the signal chain. Trying to keep that all analog, all the way up to the amplified speakers.

I agree with your note about limiting the amount of conversions, which is why I try to keep signals in the digital domain. I convert analog signals to digital as quickly as possible (= physically as close as possible to the instrument) and try to keep them digital. I have a Ferrofish A16 MK-2 AD/DA convertor connected to a RME MADI card, which gives me 16 balanced or line-level inputs (24 bit 192 kHz per channel) and the same number of outputs. I pretty much use this as a digital mixer, with my monitors connected to the two additional (very low-latency) outputs on the RME card. In general I have no need for pre-amps, as the inputs on the Ferrofish give me enough headroom.

My girlfriend uses a Focusrite 2i2 with a Rode NT1-A mic to record her guitar playing. I have no idea how the noise floor on that compares to the Ferrofish, but I live close to a busy road and when the levels are set up correctly for her playing, the (traffic) noise that enters the house is quite a bit louder than the noise floor of the mic (+ interface). In my music/computer room I always had one or two PCs turned on, so the noise generated by those + the noise coming from outside probably drowned out most of the noise in the signal sent to my monitors. I also can't turn up the volume very far, since my neighbors will start complaining.

Most of my stuff is currently in storage, but I have access to that Focusrite 2i2 and my Nord Rack 3. I could see what kind of noise floor I get with those if you like.

[Hambone]

Well I've finally gotten myself some powerful, high quality professional PA speakers and a mixer, so I can now graduate from merely using headphones. I seem to be having the same low level problem.

So far, I've only set it up this way. Outputs 1 and 2> a TS mono cable each channel> a JDI Stereo Duplex direct box> balanced cables> the Stereo inputs of a Soundcraft mfxi8 mixer.

Am I correct in understanding that your setup is just for your own listening and is not being used in a band rehearsal or live setting?

If so, you could try bypassing your DI box and just plugging the output of your Nord directly into the LINE level inputs of your mixer, which is really what you should be doing anyway. (Using a DI box in the configuration you have set up is a complicated and unnecessary way of doing things. A DI box is only necessary if you are going into MIC level inputs).

Just use your existing TS leads to do this. The inputs of your mixer are wired to automatically and correctly unbalance the input signal. If after doing this and correctly setting your mixer input gain you still have a problem with low level volume, then I would take Pablomastodon's advice about getting it looked at.

As a general note:

To be clear, do not confuse balanced LINE inputs with balanced MIC inputs. A DI box is for interfacing with balanced MIC inputs only and serves no purpose if your mixer has LINE inputs (balanced or unbalanced) that you can use. Most pro mixers that are used for FOH have balanced MIC inputs only, which is why a sound engineer will tell you (correctly) that you always need a DI box to connect to such a mixer.

However, if you are using a smaller modern semi-pro mixer (such as your Soundcraft) which does have LINE inputs, then most likely you are using it at home or in a live situation where the mixer is used onstage or fairly close by, rather than being placed truly FOH. In this case, forget the DI box and just run TS leads from your Nord into the LINE inputs - job done. If you also own a keyboard that has balanced outputs, then, again, just run directly from these directly into the mixer's LINE inputs using the appropriate leads.

In theory, you could run into hum or interference problems that could require the use of a DI box in this scenario. In practice, I have never encountered this in nearly forty years of live playing - and I don't expect I ever will. For the record, if I am playing a local gig and running directly into an onstage mixer, I use 10 meter leads with no problems. I don't own any DI boxes for my own use,and I wouldn't carry one "just in case" - it's just a waste of money. Furthermore, Nord instruments with two conductor mains leads are double insulated and have no earth connection, so they cannot cause ground loops. (These comments are for people living in western Europe ONLY. I have insufficient knowledge of electrical wiring in other parts of the world and am unqualified to comment on possible conditions that may be encountered).

[FunKey]

I'm wondering if folks who don't seem to have this issue get no noticeable hiss, or if it is just one that they can ignore easily enough or don't notice?

Now that you mention it, I do get some hiss if the USB cable is plugged in. I've actually complained about it before, and I usually unplug that cable when I don't use it. So could something like this be the cause?

[Hambone]

Indeed, while I remain stuck in Ohio, I play only in my bedroom studio until such time as I can return to Baltimore and reconnect with an established network of musician friends. I planned my setup for eventually live playing (once again) and personal recording with Logic.

I'll try connecting more directly without the DI when I get home. That would have saved me a lot on cables! The hiss I hear is not an interference kind of sound. It's a smooth, clean amplifier hiss that starts and dies away with each note. It might not be noticeable when playing with a loud group, I dunno just yet. I do not notice it though when listening to the phones through the mixer. Just through the FBT Promaxx speakers. I think it's a signal to noise ratio thing but I don't know enough to say for sure. I seemed to need 24 -27 decibels of gain on the input of the digital interface for a good level. The 20 decibels of gain available on the input of the analog mixer is not enough with my current configuration. Will report back later...