Nord User Forum

docbop wrote:

Gambold wrote:My "bitterness" and "harsh speculation" is founded on my perception that Clavia is on a slow burn to irrelevance and, eventually, a dead business. I haven't seen anything in the past few years to convince me otherwise. True, complaining on this forum won't change anything, but at least my bleatings land on actual ears that care about Nord and its products. Nord itself doesn't respond to emails or phone calls about anything anymore, so expressing concerns directly to them would be about as effective as sending up smoke signals from the fire pit in my backyard.

Usually the response to complaints or criticism is "go shop somewhere else." This is a variation on the old "love it or leave it" retort that some people think is an appropriate reaction to a disgruntled long-time customer. Well, it's not. When you've spent as much money, time and love on Nord instruments as most of its customer base has, those customers have the right and obligation to complain or point out problems as they see them.

Certainly those problems can be debated. I don't have a monopoly on the truth and who knows, maybe Clavia is doing the best job possible with marketing and developing their product line. So why slam them at NAMM? Because all the problems are there in one package. No new products except one hugely-overpriced keyboard (about which most Stage 3 users seem less than thrilled). Someone playing the same tiresome soft jazz that Nord seems to think most of their customers play. A general sense that this is a company whose heyday is in the past, and who don't have a plan for the future.

I for one don't like living in the past. But that's where we are all increasingly finding ourselves, when we talk about Nord.

I was one of the one's saying the new Nord Stage 4 is more of an update than a Upgrade and frustrated. Then I watched Jack Duxbury's latest video on it and have totally changed my mind about the Stage 4 there is a lot of change, but most are subtle but to a working musician wanting a keyboard designed for making changes in a live setting or creating quickly in the studio are great. Nord's problem is their first videos of the Stage 4 were just feature lists that didn't sound like much until a video like Jack's showing how to put them to use.

So am I going to buy a Stage 4 88 no too pricey for me and overkill for the things I do, my Stage 3 is good enough for me.

I'd say anyone really wanting to know the benefits of the Stage 4 check out Jack's video

Thanks for sharing…always enjoy Jack’s videos and this was no exception.

My take on the Stage 4 is if you’re looking for a single board solution it’s very close to being perfect, so while expensive it’s not super crazy although US pricing is inflated.

I never play on a single board though - call it paranoia or just preference, but I like 2 or 3 on stage. So my latest rig combo has a NS3C on bottom, NW2 in the middle and a Rev2 on top, with a racked VST Mac Mini and Yamaha Motif Rack XS. If I was so inclined I could probably sell most of this and get a Stage 4. Or even just sell the NS3C and NW2 and get 90% of what I have now in a NS4C.

But I won’t, even though my back would prefer it.

MarkJames wrote: My take on the Stage 4 is if you’re looking for a single board solution it’s very close to being perfect, so while expensive it’s not super crazy although US pricing is inflated.

I think the crazy part is getting used to think that 6,000 is not a crazy price.

Hlaalu wrote:

MarkJames wrote: My take on the Stage 4 is if you’re looking for a single board solution it’s very close to being perfect, so while expensive it’s not super crazy although US pricing is inflated.

I think the crazy part is getting used to think that 6,000 is not a crazy price.

In comparison with today's keyboards yes. If this was the 80s, in today's dollars the $8000 SC Prophet 10 would be about $26,000. That's crazy.

WannitBBBad wrote: In comparison with today's keyboards yes. If this was the 80s, in today's dollars the $8000 SC Prophet 10 would be about $26,000. That's crazy.

The DX7, one of the biggest selling keyboards of all time (maybe the biggest?), which it seems almost every player had, was $2000 in 1983. Today that would be... $6000.

In the 80s all electronics in general was much more expensive, starting from the very first computers.

Converting a price from 40 years ago to today's currency isn't a easy matter either, given the number of variables.

But in any case, the fact, real or hypothetical, that there have been examples in the past of overpriced gear, doesn't change the fact that, by today's standards, which are the only ones that count, we shouldn't normalise the thought of 6,000 dollars/euros being "not crazy expensive" for a keyboard.

Tech has allowed things like digital keyboards to get much cheaper, that's why we're spoiled today compared to then. The point is, the percentage of an average income you'd have had to pay in 1983 to get the keyboard everyone was getting is probably about the same as the percentage of an average income you'd have to pay to get a NS4 today. Actually less, because people are overstating the NS4 at $6k... the Compact (which also happens to be closest in size/action to that old DX7) is $4900. The two pricier models are $5400 and $5700.

Or to look at it another way, a Honda Civic was about $6k then, and it's about $20k today. Of course, the cars are very different, but in each era, those are still about the figures you'd pay for an economy car. So a DX7 was about a third of an economy car then, and a Nord Stage 3 is less than a third of an economy car today. Even if we lower the price of the economy car to allow for newer more aggressively priced Korean entries, i.e. Kia Rio.

There's no doubt that, while the NS4 has a lot to offer, it's a high priced board in today's market. But if you define "crazy expensive" in terms of affordability, it's as affordable as very mainstream--even arguably "value-priced" keyboards used to be. (The DX7 was seen as a good value.) OTOH, if you define the term competitively (i.e. it in terms of what else is in the market), then yes, it's expensive.

There is no doubt in my mind that the Stage 4 is the best digital keyboard out there, even without playing one. It's a Nord, and that means a lot in terms of quality, construction, and features.

But the pricing IS a big problem. If Clavia absolutely has to ask that much to make a fair profit, then maybe we are truly at the end of the digital keyboard age and need to move to software and MIDI controllers.$6000 is going to seriously limit the buyer pool to rich, long-standing Nord customers, and institutions like colleges or studios. Some musicians will luck out - we can assume J3PO and the rest of the Nord video gang have all been issued their freebie. For the rest of us, many of whom were waiting for this for some time, we are being asked to pay the price of two instruments. AND, while it's been argued here that there are significant improvements in the features, are there really enough to warrant this much of a price increase over the Stage 3?

Coupled with this Stage 4 pricing problem is Clavia's inability (or unwillingness) to market a keyboard for entry-level players. Maybe cost is a factor here - economies of scale might prohibit them from manufacturing a sub-$2000 Electro Jr. or Piano Lite that would open up their markets to young people and Nord newbies. Maybe. Or maybe Clavia has no interest in the lower tier of the market and wants to remain a boutique company. It's worked for them so far.

That elite market positioning has worked because of the Electro. It's the board for those who can't afford a Stage. Is anyone else nervous about what's going to happen to that cherished line? We don't know what the upcoming Electro 7 will be like but we can honestly expect that much? They aren't going to pump in exotic new tech or major memory upgrades into the Electro if they couldn't do it for their flagship Stage. And how much will it cost? Based on what's happened with the Stage, it's reasonable to expect pricing for an Electro 7 73 to go north of $4000.

Again - maybe Clavia has no choice. Costs are high, and if you want a Ferrari, you gotta spend for a Ferrari. But I preferred the days when a Nord could be more correctly compared to a Mercedes.

The prices of NS4 as I see it don‘t seem much over the top. The last normal prices for the NS3 lines - normal = before component shortage or new model speculations - here in Germany were 3k for NS3C, 3.5k for the smaller and 4k for the 88 hammer version. The NS4 right now sells at 4.3k the C, at 4.6k the smaller and 4.9k the 88 version. If we consider prices to find their level after the first buyers, the „pioneers“, have been satisfied, I would bet we end at 3.7k for the C, around 4k the smaller and max. 4.4k for the top model. As said, all in Germany, but I only want to show the relation between line 3 and 4. Not much a difference, at least not scary.

For me it’s always interesting to see how often there is a read beast visible on stages of the top acts! Almost everywhere. So these Swedes don‘t appear as if they were on a wrong way.

Future will make us see, I stay optimistical.

Cheers from Germany

anotherscott wrote: Or to look at it another way, a Honda Civic was about $6k then, and it's about $20k today. Of course, the cars are very different, but in each era, those are still about the figures you'd pay for an economy car. So a DX7 was about a third of an economy car then, and a Nord Stage 3 is less than a third of an economy car today. Even if we lower the price of the economy car to allow for newer more aggressively priced Korean entries, i.e. Kia Rio.

Pricing is a complicated issue and there are many perspectives and senses in which something might be "overpriced". It can have to do with how much margin the manufacturer is making, it can have to do with how it is affordable as compared to the average income of a certain group of people living in a certain era, it can have to do with how much do we value intellectual property over hardware, and so on.

That said, I don't doubt that you can meaningfully make all sorts of equivalences of the kind you just made, using cars and other keyboards of the time, I'm not saying they are "wrong" from an economic point of view.

It remains the fact that a digital keyboard, in 2023, being a *third* of an economy car, is a lot of money. The DX7 was as expensive, if not more? To that I'd say "so what?". The fact that such things have happened before doesn't mitigate that fact. I find it worrying that we are getting used to think that, "after all, several thousands of dollars are OK for a digital keyboard".

It's precisely these kind of thoughts that, slowly but surely, contribute to price increase.

For me the NS4 price is ok, because I belong to the customer group that usually buys Yamaha Genos or Korg PA5X, having the same price as NS4C.
Then actually getting the money is a problem, but with the combination trading in my NS3 and a supporting wife I have ordered a NS4.

The customer group I am referring to is older men without musical talent but with a desire to play.
My problem is that I feel the backtracking orchestra, i.e the styles, in Genos and PA5X restricting instead of supporting.

Previous I had a Korg Kronos and its inbuilt Karma, a random arpeggiator backtracking, was surprisingly good.
But the Karma and the rest of the Kronos was way too complicated to edit so I traded it to a NS3.
Now in NS4 the arpeggiator possibility to play the reverse of a chord I hope could be what I am missing from Kronos.