A choice of reverb/rotary routing would please everyone

[michael_C1]

Also, pre-Leslie and separate guitar amp simulation, Jon Lord-style. I too, like many of us, don't like Nord's recent approach with Hammond settings: newer models should offer more, not less.

I agree, totally.

ALL these things are offered in software: IK Multimedia’s B3x. There’s spring reverb before rotary, digital reverb after rotary, numerous other effects, a guitar cabinet, pretty realistic distortion, etc. But that’s if you want to go through the hassle of using software on gigs. Having tried that, I felt that it got old pretty fast.

[michael_C1]

Thanks everyone for the replies on this topic so far.

With the Nord Electro and Stage lines, having them considered as all-in-one instruments is at least part of Clavia’s intent.

If we’re talking about Nord’s organ simulation, having to add external effects, such as a Neo Ventilator or a reverb, defeats the purpose of the instrument’s being all-in-one. Many of us, who set up for gigs each night, don’t want the extra audio wiring, AC plugs, and the additional hassle if something goes wrong. In the dark.

If there is only one choice for Nord, an integrated reverb at the END of the signal chain that can sound good at low or high levels makes the most sense. Reverb before the rotary effect at higher levels sounds like crap, like squirrels rolling down a hill in a barrel, and that’s because of artifacts introduced by the interaction. Not so with reverb post-rotary.

Of course, this probably won’t convince spring reverb folks. The solution is that we should have a CHOICE of reverb/rotary routing.

[analogika]

The Nord Stage is not intended as a "stand-alone": it’s a stage Instrument. It will usually be played into a mixer or PA, which almost certainly has reverb attached or built-in.

(Not that I wouldn’t prefer it switchable, or, even better, an extra pre-Leslie spring reverb…)

[anotherscott]

If there is only one choice for Nord, an integrated reverb at the END of the signal chain that can sound good at low or high levels makes the most sense.

OTOH, at least reverb-before-rotary reproduces an effect you can get out of some real Hammonds. The thing about reverb-after-rotary is that it is designed to make things sound like you're playing in a bigger room, which is pleasing when you're playing in a small room, but if you're playing at a venue, you ARE playing in a bigger room. When I'm playing at a gig, I tend to use no reverb on the organ at all. Live, except for a special effect, I think reverb tends to muddy things up. The room already provides all the room ambience I need.

BTW, there is yet another option one could wish to emulate. While Hammonds with spring reverbs built in had the reverb before the Leslie, Leslies with spring reverbs built in sent the "dry" signal through the rotary speakers, and the "spring reverbed" signal through a separate, non-spinning speaker. (And then, BOTH of those signals would induce room reflections, which one might want to emulate with a room-emulating reverb at the end of the chain that contains those two, different organ signals.)

The Nord Stage is not intended as a "stand-alone": it’s a stage Instrument. It will usually be played into a mixer or PA, which almost certainly has reverb attached or built-in.

True, that may well address the complaint of people who say they don't want to have to oattach an external box to get the reverb effect they want... there's a good chance they are ALREADY attaching another box--an amplifier, a personal mixer, a FOH mixer--which very well might have reverb in it. So then it's not a matter of buying, powering, placing, and wiring up another device, it's a matter of turning a knob on another device that is already in the signal chain.

But that similarly becomes a tip for someone first assembling their rig... if you're going to be buying a small mixer or self-contained amp for your keyboard rig anyway, you may want to make it a point to choose one that has built-in reverb, if you want the option of post-rotary reverb.

[Hlaalu]

BTW, there is yet another option one could wish to emulate. While Hammonds with spring reverbs built in had the reverb before the Leslie, Leslies with spring reverbs built in sent the "dry" signal through the rotary speakers, and the "spring reverbed" signal through a separate, non-spinning speaker. (And then, BOTH of those signals would induce room reflections, which one might want to emulate with a room-emulating reverb at the end of the chain that contains those two, different organ signals.)

I have tried this and used it for a bit of time. It sounded good for what it was, but I then abandoned the idea, partly because I don't dislike at all a bit of reverb into the Leslie (the Room 1 and 2 type approximate the spring type somewhat), and partly because of what follows.

That is to say, the problem with this simulation is that the nuances that the Leslie imparts to the sound aren't limited to it's rotary nature per se. That's only a part of it, but even at the stop position, a vintage Leslie's amp and the other components give the sound a different taste than if another amp and speaker were used. I think for the vintage "Leslie sound" that many people chase both of these things are important.

If you Y the signal out and put reverb on the dry one and the Leslie sim on the other, you'll have a non-Leslie speaker with reverb, and a Leslie sound with no reverb. That's not the same thing, and you can hear the difference. To get a better results you'd need to Y two Leslied signals, one always on Stop with Reverb, and the other being used Slow-Fast-Stop with no reverb. On the S3 though this is not possible without an external Leslie sim, because once the rotary sim is enabled in both panels, the reverb (and the Leslie itself) becomes unified.

So I guess one'd need to have Panel A with reverb ON and rotary ON set on Stop, then Panel B with rotary OFF to an external Vent. The problem with this is that you can't link both panels, and any drawbar adjustment will have to be manually replicated... not very practical.

[anotherscott]

That is to say, the problem with this simulation is that the nuances that the Leslie imparts to the sound aren't limited to it's rotary nature per se. That's only a part of it, but even at the stop position, a vintage Leslie's amp and the other components give the sound a different taste than if another amp and speaker were used...you'd need to Y two Leslied signals, one always on Stop with Reverb, and the other being used Slow-Fast-Stop with no reverb

It's even more complicated than that.

You're correct, the Leslie sound isn't just the effect of the spinning speakers. It's also the amp, the speakers, and the cabinetry. But that doesn't mean you can emulate the "non-spinning" reverb speaker built into a Leslie by sending that signal to a Leslie effect in brake/stop mode. The sound of a Leslie in brake mode is not going to be the same as the sound of the dedicated reverb speaker in one of those Leslies. The dedicated reverb path of these Leslies involves using a different amp, a different speaker, and even different cabinetry (because the frequencies above the 800 Hz x'over come from the "smaller" cabinet at the top or the Leslie, which is not where the "reverb" speaker is located). Plus the sound of the frequencies above 800 Hz in brake mode will be different depending on what position the horns were in when stopped, whereas the reverb speaker is stationery and always in the same position. But even if you were able to "lock" the brake mode to front-facing (as some systems let you do), the sound of the reverb coming out of that horn, through its amp, and its section of the cabinet, is not going to be the sound of the reverb coming out of it's own (non-horn) speaker, through a different amp (and not being driven as hard), in a different enclosure.

All that said, the percentage of "real" Hammond players who played either a Hammond with a built-in spring reverb OR a leslie with a built-in spring reverb is probably rather small.

[michael_C1]

The Nord Stage is not intended as a "stand-alone": it’s a stage Instrument. It will usually be played into a mixer or PA, which almost certainly has reverb attached or built-in.

(Not that I wouldn’t prefer it switchable, or, even better, an extra pre-Leslie spring reverb…)

First, I don’t believe I ever said it was stand alone instrument, meaning an instrument with speakers and not a stage instrument. And many of us play our Nord’s into powered monitors and such, not into a mixer or a PA, so we frequently don’t have external reverb available.

My point was that an all-in-one instrument (all in one meaning that it covers all the bases) like an Electro or a Stage, shouldn’t need to use external effects unless we desire to use them. For me, being able to do it all, without extra boxes and wires, is a big part of why I enjoy playing a Nord.

[anotherscott]

many of us play our Nord’s into powered monitors and such, not into a mixer or a PA

I wonder how common that is. In my experience, most keyboards don't drive a powered monitor sufficiently for live band performances, unless you put a mixer between. (Of course, many people have mixers that don't have built-in effects, which is why I said, "if you're going to be buying a small mixer or self-contained amp for your keyboard rig anyway, you may want to make it a point to choose one that has built-in reverb, if you want the option of post-rotary reverb.") But it also depends on the usage. If it's just for on-stage monitoring, or if you're playing quietly or in an "unplugged" kind of small ensemble situation, going right into a powered monitor should be fine.

My point was that an all-in-one instrument (all in one meaning that it covers all the bases) like an Electro or a Stage, shouldn’t need to use external effects unless we desire to use them. For me, being able to do it all, without extra boxes and wires, is a big part of why I enjoy playing a Nord.

And you can do just that! It just depends on your needs. Personally, I find the Nord rotary sufficient, I wouldn't bother taking a Vent. And as I said, I don't typically use reverb on organ anyway (and if I did, I probably wouldn't even really care about pre-vs.post, but that's just me). Someone else may feel otherwise, but the Nord has *always* been a mix of things that it does just the way someone wants and things it does not. You're bugged that the only reverb available on the organ is pre-Leslie, unless you add a box. Someone else will be bothered by the fixed split points, or the single velocity layer non-piano samples, whatever. Nord has never been about ultimate flexibility, and it's probably never going to be something each user can configure for the way the personally prefer. But who knows, maybe Nord will offer switchable pre-or-post Leslie reverb in the future. You never know...

[analogika]

The Nord Stage is not intended as a "stand-alone": it’s a stage Instrument. It will usually be played into a mixer or PA, which almost certainly has reverb attached or built-in.

(Not that I wouldn’t prefer it switchable, or, even better, an extra pre-Leslie spring reverb…)

First, I don’t believe I ever said it was stand alone instrument, meaning an instrument with speakers and not a stage instrument. And many of us play our Nord’s into powered monitors and such, not into a mixer or a PA, so we frequently don’t have external reverb available.

My point was that an all-in-one instrument (all in one meaning that it covers all the bases) like an Electro or a Stage, shouldn’t need to use external effects unless we desire to use them. For me, being able to do it all, without extra boxes and wires, is a big part of why I enjoy playing a Nord.

Actually, you did say that.

[…]part of my point is that Nord’s are meant to be standalone instruments where you can dial in the sounds you want without external processing.[…]

That notwithstanding, I absolutely understand your point and can relate. I'm just lucky because the change to pre-Leslie 'verb actually suits my personal preference, since all my Hammonds have had built-in reverb or are played through a Space Echo, which of course then feeds into the Leslie.

FWIW, I used a Digitech Hardwire RV-7 Stereo Reverb pedal back when I used the Electro 2 onstage (which had no internal reverb or delay).