Question on piano frequency range and using subwoofer

[cgrafx]

Here is a nice chart showing piano notes to frequency.

http://newt.phys.unsw.edu.au/jw/notes.html

The Low B string on a 5 or 6 string bass is about 31Hz.

[jongtolibas]

Not sure then where Genelec got these values for grand piano .. they do state 'audible frequency':

Frequency Spectrum
The frequency spectrum of an electrical signal is, by definition of Collins online dictionary, "the distribution of the amplitudes and phases of each frequency component against frequency".
The audible frequency spectrum covers 10 octaves (up to 40 Hz, 80, 160, 320, 640, 1’280, 2’560, 5’120, 10’240, 20’480 Hz) which can conveniently divide the spectrum as follows.

Subsonic bass frequencies
below 16 Hz Not audible for humans.
Very low frequencies
16 Hz – 40 Hz Lowest audible octave for humans.
40 Hz – 80 Hz Music low frequencies, kick drums, bass instruments
Low frequencies
80 Hz – 160 Hz Low register of a grand piano.
160 Hz – 320 Hz Middle C of a piano.
Midrange frequencies
320 Hz – 1’280 Hz Music midrange frequencies
Upper midrange frequencies
1’280 Hz – 2’560 Hz Low-order harmonics of most instruments.
2’560 Hz – 5’120 Hz The ear is the most sensitive in this range.
High frequencies
5’120 Hz – 10’240 Hz Brightness and harmonics
Extremely high frequencies
10’240 Hz – 20’480 Hz Highest harmonics. Inaudible to humans above 20 kHz

[FZiegler]

Probably, what they mean by "low register" is typical left hand playing. The next entry in the list tells you that they just were looking for any comment for each range. Middle C isn't set anywhere between 160~320 Hz. Even not in former times.

[CountFosco]

Hi,

First time poster here, long time lurker. I am researching studio monitors for my Nord Piano 4. I currently
have 2xiLoud MTMs connected to it but there seems to be some buzz on some middle notes. So, Im thinking
of getting a different set of studio monitor to see if the issue is the speakers (or it could be the piano sample
.. currently using Royal Grand 3D XL). Anyway, I ended up looking into Genelec's 8330A SAM monitors. In their
product page, there is a setup document and this part is interesting to me:

Extra to cgrafx's (always good) ideas, the buzz could be a mechanical response in that mid frequency range of, for eg the table on which the iLouds sit, or some loose stuff attached to the table. You could test by lifting it off its mount while you play.

Of course it's nice to hear the awesome low notes when playing piano, but the frequency range of most of your playing will probably be in the sweet spot for most decent monitors. Sweating on 27 Hz might be less productive than focussing on a good flat response across a decent frequency range. I think you'll see on this forum that most people end up being happy with at least 5" woofers. If you start there, then "decent" becomes a cost/benefit decision.

[JohnT]

Middle C isn't set anywhere between 160~320 Hz. Even not in former times.

Can you explain this? I thought Middle C was just over 261Hz.

[CountFosco]

Middle C isn't set anywhere between 160~320 Hz. Even not in former times.

Can you explain this? I thought Middle C was just over 261Hz.

The table in jongtolibas's post is showing frequency in octave bands, which is a very rough frequency resolution, but kind of a standard in acoustic engineering. They're just showing that middle C is in that octave. Being a machinery vibration testing engineer, and used to dealing with resolutions of fractions of Hz, I always wondered how acoustic engineers could be so blasée about frequency, but they live in a more logarithmic world than me.

[cphollis]

There are pros and cons when using an external sub and smaller speakers. Pros: it can sound great. In addition to the frequency discussion above, there's now a separate amplifier doing the heavy lifting on frequencies <100Hz or so. Your smaller speakers aren't working as hard. Cons: can cause resonant coupling with your floor/shelf (creates a booming sound at specific frequencies), and adjusting the crossover and volume properly. I prefer playing through speakers 8"+ and avoiding a sub.

[FZiegler]

Middle C isn't set anywhere between 160~320 Hz. Even not in former times.

Can you explain this? I thought Middle C was just over 261Hz.

We're slightly off topic.

But I meant middle C certainly is somewhere within that range, but not any place between 160~320 Hz. Even in former times, when standard pitch wasn't always between 438~444 Hz like nowadays (or 440 Hz by definition in electronic music), there wasn't such a broad range: I know of standard pitch from 415 Hz for historic baroque orchestras to 466 for the Vienna Philharmonic orchestra in 19th century - which would set middle C to 246.8~277.1 Hz. Of course, after some moments I halfway understand what they mean: The range 160~320 Hz is characterised by piano middle C being part of it. And in the end, that's where jongtolibas derived his information from that pianos would go down to 80 Hz - which isn't true as they go much deeper.

And this chart is where I took my information from that there would be no music below 40 Hz (which seems to be wrong, too): https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Hoerflaeche.svg
- upper line: threshold of noise pain
- lower line: threshold of audibility
- inner area: perceptibility of speech
- wider area: perceptibility of music

[baekgaard]

And this chart is where I took my information from that there would be no music below 40 Hz (which seems to be wrong, too): https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Hoerflaeche.svg
- upper line: threshold of noise pain
- lower line: threshold of audibility
- inner area: perceptibility of speech
- wider area: perceptibility of music

Yes, that chart is not fully correct.

If you look at the source link, you will find the original, which is from a 1981 book that looks similar, but the same link also has another chart from a newer 2004 book that lists the musical range down to 31.5 Hz or so...

Sent from my phone in brevity

[wweiss]

A Subwoofer will add impact in the form of notes you can feel as well as sound stage volume. A high quality sub, can do wonderful things for mids and highs .I think when you use a subwoofer one tends to not need to go crazy with the volume . This leads to less distortion on your main speakers . Sounds more pleasing in general . Without a sub in a system and running speakers with under 12' drivers you need to raise volume to pressurize the room . Adding a subwoofer to reproduce and enhance the lowest frequencies will definitely add "presence" to your sound. In a small two-way system, the woofer covers both (sorta) bass and mid-range. The large excisions of the bass modulate the mid-range, since the mid-range is superimposed on a vary-ing, larger, bass excursion. This HAS to muddy and distort the mid-range. A good quality sub will give great precision in the bass and bass fundamentals
up to the midrange which for sure adds depth and coherence to the musical performance. A sub:
1. Improves the bass range
2. Cleans up the midrange
3. Widens the sound stage .
My near field system is a pair of Focal Alpha 65's and a KRK 10's sub. The sub is very reasonable for $400. They also make an 8 inch version. My favorite feature is it has a by pass foot switch option. Most studio subs have a by pass option. When I mute the sub during A/B ing you will tell immediately the huge difference!