The IEM Thing

[cphollis]

Man, you couldn't get me to do bluetooth audio on a live gig. Latency can be an issue, as well as general flakiness in the presence of multiple bluetooth-enabled phones. Bluetooth for midi is fine, audio ... well ... not what it was designed for.

[ajstan]

My band is at the point where we want to control our stage monitoring vs. leaving it to either our contracted sound guy or whoever is running the in-house PA. Not only for mix, but for volume too. I think that everyone would be on-board for IEMs (depending upon cost and complexity of setup/use) so I'm going to put together an outline of what we need and see what the band thinks.

We have 6 members and it would be nice if everyone got their own mix. Need at least 11 channels in (guitar, bass, stereo keys, 3 vocal mics, 3 drum mics, 1 sax mic).

Here's my initial draft of a proposed rig. Any recommendations would be helpful regarding better alternatives at this price point or a better bang-for-the-buck for slightly more.

Mixer
Behringer XR18 ($599) - has 18 channels and 6 aux outs and creates its own wifi network so no separate router is needed. I don't like that it doesn't have physical knobs, but the iPad control seems really flexible.

Headphone Preamps and Controls
I would get the Behringer Powerplay Distribution Box ($99) so each member would have the option of using their Aux channel with the Ultranet port to connect to the P16 personal mixer ($299) and controlling a stereo mix with hardware, or an XLR cable to a P1 Headphone Amp ($49) and control a mono mix through an app.

IEMs
The Westone Am Pro 30 seems to check all the boxes for me ($439). Even if I add the P16 personal mixer, it's still way less expensive than the two QSC K8.2s I just bought. (Side note, the QSCs were plenty loud and sounded very good, I just don't want to have to be that loud on stage.) I would like to identify some less expensive, but acceptable quality options for those that don't want to spring for the Am Pro 30s, or would like a backup set.

EDIT: I'd also like recommendations for equipment those who may want to run wireless with their IEMs.

Questions

1. I guess it's probably dependent upon venue/contractor, but how likely would it be for a third party to be willing to take the mains our of our mixer to FOH and run FOH from an iPad we provide?

2. If we cant use the outs on our mixer to FOH, is the best alternative to use a couple of ART S8 units to split the outs, with one set of connections going to FOH and the other to our mixer?

3. Is there anything I missed?

Thanks!

[cphollis]

Good list.

1. Go get the Westone AM Pro 30s. Trust me on this. For people who balk at the price, there are starter pairs at $95. But you won't hear much in the way of bass. You need triple-drivers for that.

2. The X-Air rawks. Make sure you spend $50 for a dedicated router.

3. Skip the personal mixers? Musos can bring their tablets and/or phones if they want to customize their mixes. That's what we do.

4. Unlikely many sound people will want to run your sound without physical knobs. At least, that's been my experience. I've showed our iPad setup to a few sound folks, and they politely declined.

That would be a problem for us, as we've extensively dialed in the sound with EQ, effects, pan, etc. No ordinary board will be doing that for us. That being said, I monitor FOH through the phones out to my IEMs. The mixer sits next to me. It's BRILLIANT. The band does a sound check, I walk around a bit and set levels. Add keys to taste later.

Once you dial in the FOH mix, there's really not much to do, especially if there are no amps (or small amps), no monitors, etc. OK, sometimes I'll adjust something for a muso who's too lazy to use their app. Or guitar hero who can't help himself.

Be sure to use it in a few rehearsals first. Works great, and there's one extra aux for someone.

4. Not sure why you couldn't use the XLR mains for FOH in *any* normal situation.

5. There isn't anything I think you've missed. We use wired belt packs. Buy a 24-pack of batteries, as they don't last long. The guitarists have learned to power them from their pedalboards. Seems to work OK.

[ajstan]

Thanks Chuck. Great info. I have a couple of follow-up questions, if you don’t mind:

Would the Behringer P1 headphone amp be sufficient, or do you recommend something else?

Also, I’m assuming that you get stereo because you’re using the phones out. If it turns out that doesn’t work for me and I need to use the last Aux channel, do you have any recommendations on the best way for me to get stereo for my monitors if I don’t use the P16 personal mixer over Ethernet?

Finally, if a venue is dead-set against us using the XR18 to the FOH and insist on feeding their board directly, I’m assuming we could get the Aux channels from the house board to the XR18 and we can dial in our own monitors from there as well, right?

[cphollis]

The Behringer P1 headphone amp is more than adequate in our world. Works stereo or mono. Force people to change batteries before a gig starts, and you'll be golden. Even better if you bring batteries and hand them out.

The only way to get true stereo from auxes is to use two of them, and pan your instruments. Once you get beyond six auxes, you're into stupid-money boards, so don't go there. I've played some gigs with a single aux, and it's not that bad.

Then again, the P16 system looks pretty sweet. At $299 per muso (plus buying decent IEMs), not exactly cheap. Again, in our setup, we're just fine without it.

In your last scenario with house FOH feeding you a bunch of auxes, technically "yes" but it would be awfully limited as far as I can tell. Everything would likely be post-fader, you'd be limited to the number of auxes they could provide you (sometimes four, sometimes 6). It would be a long, painful setup. I wouldn't want to try it.

A better scenario would be to hand the front board a pair of XLR outs from your mains, and tell the sound guy he's got an easy night ahead of him. He can worry about overall levels, EQ in the room, etc. If he doesn't like the instrument mix, he can let you know between numbers.

[Quai34]

Hi Chuck,
I'm way more a visual schematics guy, do you have any draft of you set up even a basic one made on a paper with hand writing that I could understand , I' not sure I follow your new set up....It took me a while to learn/appreciate your previous set up and I was planning on good monitors for the band and good PA but two of the drummers I know have IEM and our new singer I think she has one....We have a Mackie design Onyx 1640i, I don't see myself investing in new gear but your set up could avoid me to go any further to your previous high monitors/Great PA and saved a bit.....I would hate to call my set up obsolete...even if I would have been being able to spend as much as you on PA...
Note that in my new band, Dance/Pop/new top40's, with only one guitarist, I'm the one who is supposed to bring all, strings, pads, brass, even Claps and sequence both for sounds and rhythms and doing several parts, synths, Piano, etc is hard on me....
As I have th chance to have a dedicated sound guy who is coming all th time, who knows the songs for being at your practice and so in, It's a bit different from you taking care of the front PA but anyway, any more visual stuff would be really appreciated.....
And yes, I know, you play only Gretefull Dead tribute and low pay, we start at 1500$ for 200$ per member and same for the sound guy, 3/4 hours of playing so situation a bit different, galas. Weddings, corporate, events, conventions....
Let us know
Sincerely

[ajstan]

The Behringer P1 headphone amp is more than adequate in our world. Works stereo or mono. Force people to change batteries before a gig starts, and you'll be golden. Even better if you bring batteries and hand them out.

The only way to get true stereo from auxes is to use two of them, and pan your instruments. Once you get beyond six auxes, you're into stupid-money boards, so don't go there. I've played some gigs with a single aux, and it's not that bad.

Then again, the P16 system looks pretty sweet. At $299 per muso (plus buying decent IEMs), not exactly cheap. Again, in our setup, we're just fine without it.

In your last scenario with house FOH feeding you a bunch of auxes, technically "yes" but it would be awfully limited as far as I can tell. Everything would likely be post-fader, you'd be limited to the number of auxes they could provide you (sometimes four, sometimes 6). It would be a long, painful setup. I wouldn't want to try it.

A better scenario would be to hand the front board a pair of XLR outs from your mains, and tell the sound guy he's got an easy night ahead of him. He can worry about overall levels, EQ in the room, etc. If he doesn't like the instrument mix, he can let you know between numbers.

Thanks again, Chuck. A lot of great food for thought. I really like the idea of just setting L/R mains to FOH and letting their sound tech focus on overall EQ and volume. We still may also need someone riding our levels during and/or between songs - at least at first. I think the initial value for us will be the ability to use the same monitoring setup at rehearsal and on gigs, and of course, the FOH not getting muddied by what's on stage.

I think the biggest value of the P16m units is that everyone gets stereo. Vocalists can center their vocals for clarity and pan the others. As a small bonus, no batteries needed as the Ethernet cable will carry the power to the unit. Will probably try both.

With 24 months SAC promos, we should be able to get everything we need including cabling and backup gear for around $160/month. Heck, we may even be able to negotiate a price break to cover a lot of that from our sound contractor if he doesn't have to worry about hauling, powering, and setting up half a dozen floor wedges.

The thought is that the individual band members would be on their own to acquire their IEMs - wired or wireless, 1/2/3 drivers, ambient, whatever their preference.

[Quai34]

Hi Guys,
At Ajstan and cphollis,
Well, thanks a lot to both of you, I looked online yesterday to understand all the set up, if cphollis doesn't have any schematic that's ok, but my concern is that it involves quite a strong investments....Not that much for the benefit you could have but still more compared to what I already have....And in a previous post, Cphollis said he had to be the "band nazi", I tried that with my first band and they didn't really appreciate because they finally don't care about the sound, they just "want to play...."...They also don't really care about what the public is getting....The guitarist has invested a lot, Allen &Health Q16 at 30% less plus 2 EV 18' sub, 2 EV 15' sub plus 4 powered speaker 15', total 3000$ instead of 7000$ because our singer's brother in the national rep for EV in canada and he had to change is demo set up for the new models but nobody else beside me is willing to learn how to plug, install and improve the sound....And of course, when they have installed their guitars stuff and Amps, they don't want to do anything else....
With the new band we are all new but the others are not willing to spend on anything, so...
But thanks a lot again, I will stick for the moment with my Mackie set up and monitors, I know one of my singers would like to invest in IEM, that would give us one monitor available for the others (so, less to rent as I have only one extra monitor for singers) and if I de ode to invest in IEM for me, well, my two monitors will be for Front PA? or extra monitors again, so less rental?
Last thing, if you have your own sound tech, who's with the band all the time, being paid the same as each player, why we wouldn't be able to get a good sound and must go "the IEM and mixer on the stage" route?

[cphollis]

Sorry, Quai34, no set of schematics handy. Maybe at some point I'll create some.

Ajstan, no arguing that the $299 P16m looks like a better way to go. But the way things work in our band, it'd be me buying them, and I've got better places to spend >$1500. Although I do have a pile of recently obsoleted amplification thanks to IEMs. Maybe ... ??

We did a great gig yesterday, afternoon beach bar from 1-4. Maybe 300 people there? Al Quinn, fellow forum member, was vacationing with his wife nearby, and drove down for a pleasant afternoon by the beach.

We went with two pair of 8"s as we had one half of the audience on the left side of the pool, and one half of the audience on the right side of the pool. K8s and RCF TT08-as. And a small sub.

No stage monitors. Guitarists brought their amps, but you could barely hear them. Drummer of course was loud, so minimal amplification through the FOH. I mixed FOH sound, didn't use any stage amps.

The crowd commentary was off-the-charts positive on the sound and mix. Maybe it was all those margaritas people were drinking, I don't know. The venue owner was so pleased he threw us an extra $100 for the afternoon. And asked about locking in a bunch more dates.

[ajstan]

Sounds like fun! Interesting that you used 8s as mains (then again, you used four of them, not two). If we move to IEMs, I'm trying to decide whether to keep my pair of QSC K8.2s and get a sub so I can use them as mains for smaller venues. Another option would be to upgrade to the 10s or 12s and be able to use them in more venues (with the right subs), including outdoor festival-type gigs. Decisions.