Gain Staging on the Stage

[Fallboard]

Hey I'm pretty new to mixing but I've noticed that sometimes the sections at max volume, even when played alone are too saturated and hot. Is it not normal to play with each section maxed to 0db and then mixed down to taste or using the master volume? Sorry for the dumb question haha

[baekgaard]

I normally have at least one instrument at 100% and the others to taste and then use the master volume to match the FOH inputs. I do, however, try to keep the overall output on a similar sonding level so a busy program with layered sounds may each be at less than 100%.

[Iconoclast]

What are you playing it into? Entirely possible the "saturation" is happening downstream from the Nord.

Also, I see NO reason to always have one instrument at 100%. If your amplification system is good you should have plenty of gain on the backend of the signal chain. Most digital recording systems or modern boards or quality speakers don't need you to hit them with a ton of signal.

Plus: Like Nigel T said, if you're at 10, where can you go?

[baekgaard]

Also, I see NO reason to always have one instrument at 100%.

You should probably tell that to Nord This is how most of the default programs are set up. In most (not all) cases, a single piano or organ program has that instrument at 0 dB (100%), and the other programs are then adjusted to suit the same perceived loudness, so the board sounds even across programs.

So it is actually the other way round: There are only a few reasons to go below 0 dB (100%) as the starting point for the individual instruments (but there are some good ones).

Most digital recording systems or modern boards or quality speakers don't need you to hit them with a ton of signal.

That is not what I suggested either, so maybe I should have been less brief. Here's the longer version:

The individual instrument knobs work in the digital domain. The 0 dB level (or 100% instrument gain) means that the output of the instrument is kept as it is generated by the modelling/sampler-playback before being sent to the final output summation and effects. If you reduce it to less (i.e. if you set it to -6 dB) it just means you attenuate the signal a bit internally in the digital domain (which may either discard some of the signal if done in integer arithmetics, or it may entirely keep it almost as if, if the summation stage is done in floating point).

Assuming Nord have designed the instrument well (I think they have), there will be headroom in the digital output chain. Maybe the instruments themselves are based on 24 bit samples and the output summation is done in 32 bits (which adds 48 dB "headroom" if you will). So if you keep the instruments at 0 dB (i.e. 100% on the scale), they will run at their native generated output into the final stages.

It makes sense to me that the overall output of the keyboard is kept consistent across programs, with similar perceived loudness. So the starting point could be that a single acoustic piano or your default organ patch is maintained at 0 dB on the instrument level.

At least, that is how Nord have set up their own programs.

For programs that have more going on, the levels are reduced a bit -- this, I believe, is not to prevent internal distortion, but to keep the levels consistent between programs (if there would be any internal distortion, it would be digital, and it would sound horrible, so not so easy to miss).

So what I do (and I think this is how Nord has been doing it as well) is this:

Single instrument acoustic programs (which I assume are the ones with the lowest perceived loudness) are kept at 0 dB on the instrument level.

When I add more to a program (effects, more instruments, ...) I find a proper balance between the internal voices and then adjust the overall level of ALL instruments so that the perceived output loudness is similar to my other programs. There is even a function on the board to simultaneously adjust all instruments levels up or down, keeping their internal balance

When I play at some venue or at home, I use the master output knob, which I think is primarily working in the analog domain. This one almost NEVER goes to 100%, but I prefer to keep the levels somewhere around 1 o'clock, so that it is easy to make minor adjustments up or down. Usually when the FOH is a 0 input gain (line levels) I end up between 1 and 2 o'clock on that.

Plus: Like Nigel T said, if you're at 10, where can you go?

That quote is relevant in one situation: If you want to adjust one (Nord panel) instrument in a program to become louder compared to the others during a gig, then it makes sense to keep individual headroom in all of those channels. For single instrument programs, just use the master output if needed, so there are hardly any reasons to deviate from 0 dB for those if they match the overall perceived loudness. For multi-instrument programs you will likely anyway be a bit less than 0 dB to match the loudness.

But if you prefer to keep your overall internal digital levels 6 dB lower, feel free to do so! There is -- as you say -- hardly any real loss in a live situation. You may just have to tweak all the default Nord programs you could still be using.

[RichardG]

I always have the main volume on 50%.

The programs I use are mostly based around organ/piano and also have their volume around 50%.
Then I adjust other parts relative to those.

I've got a small mixer that supplies the balanced FOH l/r and drives my monitor (QSC-10).
I make sure that the signal into the mixer stays just in the green with peaks into the red.

This way (I hope) the FOH gets the best signal-to-noise ratio.
For monitoring I can crank up the QSC to deafening values if needed
It is also controlled from the mixer where the knob is also set around 50%.

These settings make it possible to adjust anything up or down (either using the main volume or an individual section) without running into a limit.

[Iconoclast]

@ beakgaard: did you seriously give me a whole three sentence paragraph response to a Nigel Tufnel quote?

Dude, where's the facepalm emoji when I need it.

[Quai34]

I don't do the 50% level at all:
For me, all volume potentiometer for all my units, stage 2, C2, DSI synth etc are always at 100% because I'm pretty sure it's what they called the 0db nominal level....
Then, I adjust the input gain on my mixer to get 0db on the Vu meter for each unit...
Between the internal engine, I adjust then individually for the 2nd and 3rd parts (the ones that are not the main ones...) in decreasing them....
I have two output on my mixer then, I adjust mine to get enough volume for me and for competing with guitarists and loud drummer but for the FOH, I just raise the volume until the sound guy get 0db as well....
So, not sure I understand why you should keep any level before the final one at 50%, for me it's kind of "damaging" the nominal level of the board....

[RichardG]

I don't do the 50% level at all:
For me, all volume potentiometer for all my units, stage 2, C2, DSI synth etc are always at 100% because I'm pretty sure it's what they called the 0db nominal level....
Then, I adjust the input gain on my mixer to get 0db on the Vu meter for each unit...
Between the internal engine, I adjust then individually for the 2nd and 3rd parts (the ones that are not the main ones...) in decreasing them....
I have two output on my mixer then, I adjust mine to get enough volume for me and for competing with guitarists and loud drummer but for the FOH, I just raise the volume until the sound guy get 0db as well....
So, not sure I understand why you should keep any level before the final one at 50%, for me it's kind of "damaging" the nominal level of the board....

My mixer is on the ground so unreachable while I'm playing.
We don't have our own soundguy, so how could I possibly make myself heard with a solo if everything's already at 100% ?

I agree on your 0db setting wrt to the signal-chain but in practice this doesn't work for me.
I need the 'headroom' from a practical perspective.

[baekgaard]

@ beakgaard: did you seriously give me a whole three sentence paragraph response to a Nigel Tufnel quote?

Dude, where's the facepalm emoji when I need it.

It's here: ... You're welcome

Anyway, that's the fun part of sarcasm; it doesn't translate well across cultural differences: Apparently I didn't manage to get my point across, that even the strongly exaggerated "Nigel T" statement actually had a grain of truth to it... Besides, it wasn't easy to tell that your 2nd paragraph was meant to be taken serious and the 3rd one wasn't; they were both gross generalisations in my book

No need to continue discussing this. I probably didn't manage to get my main points across in two attempts, so I'll refrain from trying once more. Was just trying to be helpful and address the original question that touched on what was "normal" gain staging and why.

[Valpurgis]

[My mixer is on the ground so unreachable while I'm playing.
We don't have our own soundguy, so how could I possibly make myself heard with a solo if everything's already at 100%

Maybe the musical way? Use expression, volume pedal, key velocity, mutually adapt the each other, leave room for solos. If everyone is at 100% I assume you play in a punk cover band......