Is it just me? Stage 2 sounds better than Stage 3?

[harmonizer]

analogika, thanks a lot for posting that comparison.

The odd thing is that the quiet passages in the Stage2 recording are a lot quieter than for the Stage3. I noticed it especially at 0:28-0:31. I looked at both wav files in Audacity, and it is quite visible that the Stage 3 is significantly louder there than the Stage 2. I have attached a screen shot which shows the wav files for the Stage2 and Stage3 at that point in time (from 0:28-0:31). When I listen to the recordings (before looking at the wav files in Audacity), it seemed there was a greater dynamic range in the Stage2 recording. And the screen shot from Audacity seems to say the same thing, at least for this part of the recording. I realize the Stage3 recording seems louder overall, but the degree to which the Stage3 sounds louder (and appears louder in Audacity) from 0:28-0:30 seems to be out of scale (greater) than that seen from 0:31.7 - 0:33.0.

[analogika]

I agree that the difference is huge.

But this is certainly not attributable to different DACs — the variation among DACs hasn't been this extreme since the early '90s.

It sounds more like the Stage 3 has a completely different dynamic response — perhaps a dramatic change in velocity curve between the Stage 2 and 3?

[harmonizer]

I just re-read your test description:
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Methodology:
Recorded a MIDI track into Logic X from the Stage 3, played it back on both the Stage 2 and the Stage 3 and recorded the respective via the same interface at identical settings, and then normalised the audio files in Logic.
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I wonder if the sound engine portion and "MIDI controller" portion of a Stage 2 might be matched up with each other, and those on a Stage 3 also matched to each other. What I mean is, maybe your Stage 3 "MIDI controller" sends signals reflecting less or more aggressive key pressing, but your Stage 3 "sound engine" is expecting that. You were listening to the sound coming out of your Stage 3 while playing on the Stage 3 keyboard. I wonder if the test results might have been different if you had been playing on (and listening to) your Stage 2.

[baekgaard]

But this is certainly not attributable to different DACs — the variation among DACs hasn't been this extreme since the early '90s.

I agree; I also don't think it could be due to attributes of the DACs themselves. I was more thinking that IF there is anything in the output chain that contributes to differences in sound, it would more likely be other parts of the analog circuitry (like different levels of THD etc -- similar to how cheaper mixers with less headroom and more THD might sound OK for single instruments, but where the soundscape starts breaking down the more complex it becomes, and the "air" disappears).

But it IS more likely that the main cause is in how the key velocity to output mapping is done. This could, as suggested, simply be the velocity curve, but possibly also different ways of switching/scaling between individual velocity layers that could have been improved?

In any case, I like the NS3 better also here; mainly wanted to point out that the NS2 (to me) sounded a bit like my NE3 sounds.

[anotherscott]

The odd thing is that the quiet passages in the Stage2 recording are a lot quieter than for the Stage3

There is an issue that the the NS3 apparently does not behave exactly the same with MIDI input as it does when triggering from its own keys. Check the thread at http://www.norduserforum.com/nord-stage ... 13962.html

According to that thread, the NE5D plays smoothly with the default action of an attached 88 (that is, when it is being triggered via MIDI rather than directly by its own keys), while the NS3 does not... things seems louder, it is hard to play quietly, dynamic range seems reduced. Apparently Nord has acknowledged the issue. This problem appears to be new to the NS3.

I've had no issues using an external controller with either my current NE5D or my former NS2. Except that, at least on the NS2 (haven't yet tested the NE5D), the keyboard does not properly respond to MIDI Velocity 1, which is a proper "silent keypress" when playing the Nord's own keys, but generates a sound when played back over MIDI.

[Streef]

All, thank you for this constructive input. I do feel indeed that it is the velocity curve that's the (or my) problem. What you can see from Harmonizer's pictures is what has been on this forum before: it is difficult to play low volume. The example Analogika created was played on the NS3. Soft notes were played (and recorded) very softly to get them to sound soft on the NS3. Playing the same midi file on the NS2 shows that: The soft notes are *really* low volume.

This also shows when you play a standard piano midi file (for example some Bach, downloaded from the Internet). Playing it on the NS3 will give you quite loud performance with very little difference in high/low volume. Very likely, if Analogika would have created the midi file on the NS2, it will sound very undynamic (little difference between loud/soft) on the NS3. It would be nice to see that

Also, pressing the KBD touch button will change the sound in the piano section, also when NS3 is controlled by MIDI. This can be easily heard when playing from external midi device. I do believe there is another velocity curve however, that transforms the 'raw' data from the keyboard to input for the NS3 synth section:

What I find strange is the following, and maybe you can test this yourself. I get a different keyboard response when playing the NS3 with a MIDI cable plugged simply between midi out/in and setting Local Control to OFF. This suggests that there is an extra 'curve' that is used only when playing from internal keyboard. I believe that this is the 'curve' that is causing the issues people have with soft playing on the HA keyboards (and maybe also the curve that make the people using the NS3compact enthusiastic about their keyboard...

[anotherscott]

What I find strange is the following, and maybe you can test this yourself. I get a different keyboard response when playing the NS3 with a MIDI cable plugged simply between midi out/in and setting Local Control to OFF.

Based on my post immediately preceding yours, this is not strange at all, but rather, is to be expected. When you connect it that way, you are using an "external" source to send MIDI date to the sound engine, even though you are using the built-in keys. That is, the Nord is processing that input as MIDI input, same as if it were coming from another attached set of keys, or a DAW. That's the scenario that creates the peculiar response I described, and is being discussed in that other thread I referenced.

This also goes back to my example of the NS2 not handling MIDI Velocity 1 correctly on a MIDI input. The Nord has one set of velocity information that is being used "internally" between its own keys and its sound generating electronics, and a different set of data that it uses when responding to input via MIDI.

[baekgaard]

What I find strange is the following, and maybe you can test this yourself. I get a different keyboard response when playing the NS3 with a MIDI cable plugged simply between midi out/in and setting Local Control to OFF. This suggests that there is an extra 'curve' that is used only when playing from internal keyboard. I believe that this is the 'curve' that is causing the issues people have with soft playing on the HA keyboards (and maybe also the curve that make the people using the NS3compact enthusiastic about their keyboard...

It's not that strange Or at least, it is in fact documented and works like this:

For playing locally, the idea is that you use the KBD TOUCH setting of 1, 2 or 3 respectively in the Piano section. This (should) work(s) as it does normally on recent Nord devices.

However, when you play with the MIDI loopback, you actually use the settings of the Extern section, and it has it's own kbd velocity scaling, which you can change in the Extern Menu 3; it's called KEYB VELOCITY PANEL A/B and has settings of Soft, Mid and Hard. Everything that is sent out MIDI goes through this.

So... there are indeed two curves: One being used for controlling the Piano section locally and another being used when sending MIDI data. It is not clear to me exactly how and at which point the curve adjustments are done (and disregarding whether you're in global MIDI mode or only use the Extern -- there was at least at some point a difference/bug so that you could get both "raw" output with no curve applied and then a curve applied one too).

It is clear that for internal playing, it is like

Keyboard -> KBD TOUCH -> Piano Section

and I would find it most logical if the Extern Section works like in, i.e. that KBD TOUCH would NOT impact the output sent to MIDI, as the KBD TOUCH button lives in the Piano Section (only):

Keyboard -> KEYB VELOCITY PANEL A/B -> Extern Section MIDI OUT

What is not completely clear then is what happens when you receive MIDI data to the Piano Section. There are two option:

A) MIDI IN -> Piano Section

B) MIDI IN -> KBD TOUCH -> Piano Section

I would find option A the most logical, but I don't know for sure. Based on what you say, maybe it is actually option B).

I'll try to check/document this later when back with my instrument, but since there were some substantial bugs in this area with the earliest releases, there could still be some undesirable effects.

Hope this helps to clarify?

[baekgaard]

Looks like @anotherscott beat me in replying essentially the same type of response

But I should add that even if I would have found option A) more logical (based on my understanding on how previous Nords behave), most evidence today points towards option B) as being the right one. But I'll try to clarify later on.

[anotherscott]

However, when you play with the MIDI loopback, you actually use the settings of the Extern section, and it has it's own kbd velocity scaling, which you can change in the Extern Menu 3; it's called KEYB VELOCITY PANEL A/B and has settings of Soft, Mid and Hard. Everything that is sent out MIDI goes through this.

It is not true that "everything that is sent out MIDI goes through this." Only MIDI that is sent out via the EXT function is (or should be) affected by the EXT settings (which can be different for each panel of each program). By default, the NS3 will also send and receive MiDI globally on MIDI channel 1. So then if you simply set Local Off, and loop MIDI Out to MIDI In, you can (or should be able to) MIDI-trigger the Nord sounds without going through the EXT sections (or activating any of their program-specific settings).

disregarding whether you're in global MIDI mode or only use the Extern -- there was at least at some point a difference/bug so that you could get both "raw" output with no curve applied and then a curve applied one too

It would be a bug if it did NOT behave that way.

In theory, you should be able to transmit three different curves from the keys simultaneously over MIDI: Global (unaltered default curve), a "soft" curve via the EXT section on one panel, and a "hard" curve via the EXT section of the other panel. (You'd presumably want to select different channels for the Global MIDI channel, the EXT Panel 1 channel and the EXT Panel 2 channel!)

{ETA: Correction, baekgaard informs us that the Global unaltered default curve corresponds to "hard" and so the two additional alternate curves available in the EXT sections are Mid and Soft, rather than Hard and Soft.}

On any keyboard set to transmit/receive on a given Global channel, direct MIDI Out to MIDI In (Local Off, no other routing/manipulation) *should* produce the same results as playing the keys directly. If it did not, you would be incapable of reproducing a performance by playing into a DAW, it would not sound the same on playback. But there is apparently some bug in the NS3, such that it is not interpreting the MIDI IN velocity data correctly. That would explain why it's not playing properly when triggered from an external 88, and why harmonizer noticed the reduced dynamic range when it was playing a MIDI file. The symptom appears to be the same in both cases, improper scaling of MIDI-received notes, perhaps particularly at the lower end of the velocity spectrum.