Good gigging amp (or PA)

[mwtzzz]

I'd like some suggestions on what's a good gigging amp (or PA) for indoor medium sized bar venue. I've got an Electro 2. Primarily using B3 sounds, some Rhodes (we do a soul-jazz set). Also would be using this for practice too.

Things I've tried:
KC-150 (for practice). Doesn't handle the organs. Clips and distorts badly. Not enough power.
KC-350. Okay power wise but organ doesn't sound good through it.
Mackie DLM8. I got this based on the review here: http://www.keyboardmag.com/gear/1183/po ... amps/29176 and frankly it just doesn't cut it. The sound is clean and it doesn't distort, but cranked up on full volume with all the volume knobs full on the Nord, and it couldn't even keep up with the rest of the band in practice. Not to mention that the organ sounds really don't sound that good through it. They say this would make a good on stage monitor, but based on our experience in practice, it wouldn't hack it.

The rehearsal spot has a PA that I plugged into a couple weeks ago and it sounded great. I don't know what brand/model, I'll check next time, but I don't know how convenient it would be to lug it around every time we go to practice.

Our guitar says, in his opinion, Fender tube amps are the best for the B3 and Rhodes sounds. I don't have any experience with putting keyboards through them.

So any solid suggestsions?

[pablomastodon]

Our guitar says, in his opinion, Fender tube amps are the best for the B3 and Rhodes sounds.

Hard to resist asking whether the drummer had any pearls of wisdom for you...

Much has been written in this forum about this subject. Try looking in the Amplification section. It's all there. Small PA will be superior to most solutions and there's the SpaceStation. Admittedly, there are many who will like B3 and Rhodes through a Fender Twin, but that amp will not be doing acoustic pianos any big favors.

Bless,

Pablo

[S h a w]

One (or a pair) of these babies. Perhaps with an EQ on the front end...
http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/EON612

Cheers!

[cphollis]

So much has been written about this subject. I'll try and condense:

1) avoid guitar amps like the plague, unless you're into a very specific (and colored) sound, e.g. dirty Rhodes.
2) self-powered PA units are generally preferable to anything marketed as a "keyboard amp". One is good, two is better. EV, QSC, Yamaha -- many choices.
3) SpaceStation a popular choice for B3 players (leslie sounds great), and those who play their boards in stereo.
4) don't go cheap -- you own nice boards, spring for some decent amplification.
5) your Electro 2 has chronically low output levels -- I used to have one -- try a small, cheapo mixer if volume is your only problem.

The only people you should be getting keyboard amplification advices from is -- well -- other keyboard players.

[dgw6208]

I use the Roland KC550 stereo mixing amp primarily. With its 4 stereo channels, I can pipe the Nord's stereo inputs into one channel that can have its volume turned up separately from the other channels to help give me more volume when needed for some of the lower volume sounds. (I've already re-saved several of these with higher gain settings, and still need more boost from the amp.). My other board is a Hammond xk3c, which also has stereo outputs. Despite what others say, I think this amp sounds pretty good across all 88 keys. When stage space allows, I link my practice amp (Roland KC350) in stereo as the Right speaker, since it isn't as good in the lower frequencies as the larger KC550.

[mwtzzz]

Thanks for the replies. As I mentioned, I do already have a small powered PA - the Mackie DLM8. The sound is okay, it's clean, but the problem is one of volume only. Someone mentioned the Electro 2 has low output levels and a mixer might help. Okay, maybe I'll give that a try if that will truly help boost the volume, although to be honest I don't understand how that will help with volume at all because mixers are passive.

I've got a friend who plays B3, Electro. I mentioned my dilemma to him, he says he uses a single QSC 10 when he gigs and uses the "Mic input" mode instead of Line level mode, says it helps boost the volume.

My Mackie DLM8 is supposed to be able to output a strong volume so I'm not sure why we couldn't hear it above the guitar and drums during our last practice.

[S h a w]

My Mackie DLM8 is supposed to be able to output a strong volume so I'm not sure why we couldn't hear it above the guitar and drums during our last practice.

Tell the guitar player to get his amp off 11 and you should be able to hear.

[pablomastodon]

1) although to be honest I don't understand how that will help with volume at all because mixers are passive.

2) I've got a friend who plays B3, Electro. I mentioned my dilemma to him, he says he uses a single QSC 10 when he gigs and uses the "Mic input" mode instead of Line level mode, says it helps boost the volume.

3) My Mackie DLM8 is supposed to be able to output a strong volume so I'm not sure why we couldn't hear it above the guitar and drums during our last practice.

1) last time I checked, some mixers are actually active...

2) inputting a line level signal to an input set to receive a mic level signal will surely degrade audio quality in an overdrive sort of way. This can at times be a desireable effect, but not always...

3) playing with discipined, professional musicians will generally alleviate this condition. It can be useful to conduct rehearsals at low volume levels, sufficiently low that vocals need not be mic'd. You can alternatively remind your drummer/guitar players that stupidly loud volumes do not demonstrate skill and talent, but a lack thereof. Keep in mind, however, that your drummer has wooden projectiles in his hands and probably a quiver full of backup ammunition at his side.

Bless,

Pablo

[mwtzzz]

There are two things going on here:

First, the Mackie needs more input level than the Nord can provide. You would need to boost the input level by about 10dB, using a small mixer (active, not passive)or similar, before the Mackie could produce its maximum power.

Secondly, the quoted power rating of the Mackie is completely misleading - in fact it's the most misleading claim I have ever seen. The amplifiers can produce two thousand watts PEAK, but they only produce half of that at RMS, which is the "real-life" actual sustained power they can put out, so realistically the amplifiers can produce 1000 watts. But that's the amplifiers. The loudspeakers couldn't handle anything like that, so the amplifiers can't ever run anywhere near that 1000 watts. At a rough guess, I don't think the speakers can produce more than about 100 - 150 watts. But it gets worse. The maximum SPL of the speakers is quoted at 125dB, which is ok, but not great. This means that the speakers are not able to produce as much power as they could if they had a higher SPL. When you add that all up, it means that the DLM8 isn't going to give you even remotely the volume that Mackie are trying to imply that you could get out of it. Frankly, Mackie are being absolutely disgraceful here.

The dead giveaway is this quote from the manual: "DLM loudspeakers are the perfect tool for singer-songwriters touring the local coffee shops". Hardly band-level volume then. Secondly, the manual does show a setup for DJing - using FOUR DLMs. Enough said.

So, first you need to try and boost the volume of the Nord going into the Mackie. That should give you a fairly substantial increase in volume overall. However, it still might not be loud enough for you, in which case you have no choice but to get rid of it and find something more powerful to suit your needs.

[drraw]

Hey everyone! Thanks for all the feedback.

Gig 1:
Set-up: ran NE5 into a twin reverb (monitor) with an SM57 to Main board.
Results: Organs sounded very good, Piano sounds totally sucked to the point of deciding not to use it

Gig 2:
Set-up: ran NE5 Stereo Outs into small Yamaha (MG32CX) Stereo inputs to act as my DI. I sent the Yamaha L/R Main Outs to the Band's main Mackie Board (two separate channels as no dedicated stereo inputs - old board) and left the pans straight up. I then took the monitor outs from the Yamaha and sent them into a Roland KC100 (strictly for monitor). With this set-up I cancelled out any phase issues that would occur in a non-stereo amp (Pablo indicated that that could be a big issue).
Results: Incredible improvement for the piano ... drastic!
Caveat: I wonder if I ran the same set-up above using the Twin instead of the Roland Amp, if my monitor would sound superior (maybe next time)

Home Gear:
Set-up: Going through Mixing Board to a pair of QSC-K12's with a KSub
Results: Incredible, unbelievable and makes me smile
Caveat: As keyboardists, we already have so, so much gear to lug. Half the time I joke that I play for free and get paid to move the equipment (old song). Not quite ready to break out the home rehearsal hall gear for some of these gigs.

Thanks to Pablo for steering me in the right direction.