Stereo Y cable output questions

[damasp]

Yesterday I bought a short stereo cable to output from my E3 that merges into one 1/4" stereo plug. I wanted to experiment with just using that cable to see if I could get a more of a stereo sound, even if I'm using only one powered speaker. Particularly with the piano patches. Ultimately having two powered speakers would be really pleasing to my ears.

But, with this setup, I used the "Y" cable left and right outputs to the single stereo plug. Then that 1/4" plug into my tube preamp and then I used a XLR cable output from the preamp into the XLR input of my powered speaker. I didn't include my little mixer in this setup.

I know how good the keyboard sounds when using my headphones. With the stereo "Y" cable there was a significant increase of volume as opposed to just using the Left channel (mono cable). I think the piano sounds sounded a bit better without the mono button applied in this setup. I also noticed many of my program piano and organ patches had a ton of reverb, that wasn't noticable when using the stereo headphones or using a mono connection with my powered speaker. Also noticed that the organ sounds were different and I'm not sure if they were better than the mono hookup. I could hear more of the leslie effect though. All of these changes are puzzling.

Ultimately I want to figure out the best sound for playing live into the house PA. In the past I used their di box and came out from that to my powered speaker on stage. I also want to have enough volume without turning my speaker up full.

Has anyone used this type of setup or do you have any advice?

[mjbrands]

Since you're essentially adding both the left and right channel together, pure mono signals will sound twice as loud (danger of distortion) while sounds that have some stereo component will have unpredictable interactions between the left and right channels.

You mention not having enough volume: is this when you run a cable straight from your Nord to the powered speaker via a balanced input (without using a DI box)?

[damasp]

Thanks mjbrands. I was afraid of something like what you mentioned as "unpredictable interactions between the left and right channels". There is definitely not enough volume if a just run a cable from my Nord E3 to my speaker cabinet.

I think my regular 1/4" cables are unbalanced.(?) I do have a 1/4" to a XLR cable and I'm thinking that one would be balanced. I haven't tried that cable going directly into the speaker yet.

Most of the time I play with the band, I use that 1/4" to the XLR cable for my mixer to my speaker. My mixer doesn't have a XLR out. The mixer definitely boosts my volume. I use either a EV EXL12P cabinet or a Carvin LM15A.

[damasp]

Just to expand on what mjbrands said: You really shouldn't do this, as it is connecting your signals incorrectly, which is what's leading to the unpredictable results you're getting. This arrangement does NOT in fact mix your sound to stereo, and could potentially cause damage to your equipment. Unfortunately, there is no way of getting a stereo signal if you're using a single powered speaker.

Ultimately I want to figure out the best sound for playing live into the house PA. In the past I used their di box and came out from that to my powered speaker on stage. I also want to have enough volume without turning my speaker up full.

This is actually the best way to do it, no improvement is really possible with your current setup. If you need more volume, you could use your Behringer mixer to boost the volume as necessary.

Actually, there is one way to hear yourself in stereo - you could use BOTH your powered speakers. Obviously, they're not matched, but it might well sound ok - if you want to carry the extra weight! However you couldn't use your tube preamp here as it's only mono. Or you could buy a second one...

Basically, if you want stereo, then the whole signal chain has to be stereo from beginning to end.

[damasp]

Thanks RedLeo. Glad to hear that advice sooner than later as for possible equipment damage. I think I'll use the mixer to boost the volume more there. The thought of carrying two powered speakers up and down stairs is a headache, unless they were smaller and lighter. But not for now anyway. Thanks for shedding light on the whole signal chain stereo hookup also.

When I bought my EV cabinet recently I was pretty much resigned to getting a one good quality speaker that would sound best in mono for my Nord. It does have a good sound, but needs the boost with the mixer.

[mjbrands]

I think my regular 1/4" cables are unbalanced.(?) I do have a 1/4" to a XLR cable and I'm thinking that one would be balanced. I haven't tried that cable going directly into the speaker yet.

Most of the time I play with the band, I use that 1/4" to the XLR cable for my mixer to my speaker. My mixer doesn't have a XLR out. The mixer definitely boosts my volume. I use either a EV EXL12P cabinet or a Carvin LM15A.

Regarding that cable, does the side with the jack have two (tip-ring) or three (tip-ring-sleeve) contacts? Or to put it differently: is it a 'mono' or a 'stereo' jack?

If it is a TRS ('stereo') jack it most likely is a balanced cable; if it is mono (TR) jack, you already have the right cable and the following isn't that interesting.

When you connect an unbalanced device (like your Nord) to a balanced input, it doesn't necessarily work properly. Older (or very expensive) equipment that is 'transformer balanced' can't really handle this situation well, but newer (cheaper, note I'm not saying cheap ) stuff that is 'servo-balanced' (there are also other terms) use an electronic circuit that can recognize this situation. Such an input will treat an unbalanced signal differently than a balanced one and they should have roughly the same loudness. Most modern audio equipment with balanced inputs have inputs that cope just fine with these unbalanced inputs, but some stuff (like some really expensive/old mic preamps) don't.

I've had issues when connecting unbalanced devices to balanced inputs; they went away when I made sure I actually plugged in an unbalanced cable. Now this a bit hard to do with an input that is inherently balanced (XLR), but you can do it by making sure the device side is an unbalanced connector (i.e. a 'mono' jack, or a 'stereo' jack in which the tip and ring are electrically connected together). The manual for your powered speaker will likely describe a situation like this.

Anyway, you might want to have a look at this. It might solve your volume issue, it might not. Using a DI box is also an option. If you're gigging I would always use a DI box; it keeps noise out of the signal (especially with long cables) and it protects your equipment, i.e. if the FOH mixer where to have a short-circuit and were to put dangerous voltages on it's inputs, your Nord would be protected if you used a DI box while without one it might get fried. It also gets rid of ground-loop buzzing (50 or 60 Hz tone).

[damasp]

That cable is 1/4" is a single ring, so I guess it's a TR jack and the other end is a XLR. Is this an unbalanced jack connecting to a balanced jack? Could this be a problem?

Hey MJbrands,

That connection is always the last connection I've been using, that being from my main out of my mixer into the EV cabinet. The manual says the EV cabinet accepts both XLR and TRS inputs in inputs 1 and inputs. In the picture diagram, it shows a keyboard going into input 1, using a TR cable jack, it shows a single ring at the end.

Would it be better to use my tube preamp after my mixer, to send the unbalanced signal to my preamp and then use it to convert the signal by using the XLR output (with a XLR cable both male and female) and plug it into the speaker? Is there another way also? Thanks for you help.

[bluesbaba]

Just sayin... no real help for you here though. When I use my Ex for live I use a roland Kc-100 and the mic/line input. From there I have no problem with volume!

I also am fussy about hearing my self so sometimes I just turn off the amp so I can hear the monitor mix. If I cant hear my self I complain to whoever is the psycho nob twiddler that day.

[Mr_-G-]

Hi damasp,
You may want to take a look at this page: http://www.rane.com/note109.html
I guess that if you try one of the summing circuits you will get a bit of attenuation, so that might not be the ideal solution either.
Perhaps you could try a preamp to boost the signal up before reaching the mixer?

[mjbrands]

That cable is 1/4" is a single ring, so I guess it's a TR jack and the other end is a XLR. Is this an unbalanced jack connecting to a balanced jack?

Most like this is the right cable, but the only way to make sure would be to open the connectors and follow the wires or (better) use a multimeter to check if pins 2 and 3 on the XLR are connected together.

The EV's manual specifically says 'electronically balanced inputs', so it should cope with line-level unbalanced inputs just fine. The manual also shows unbalanced equipment connected to the speaker. Something I also noticed is that unless you're running two speakers in linked mode, both channels on the RCA inputs are summed together (might sound a bit better than the Y-cable, or it might make no difference).

Would it be better to use my tube preamp after my mixer, to send the unbalanced signal to my preamp and then use it to convert the signal by using the XLR output (with a XLR cable both male and female) and plug it into the speaker? Is there another way also? Thanks for you help.

If you do that, you'll be amplifying both the signal and the noise. Why not just turn up the gain for the inputs?