NS4 problems with external gear

[anotherscott]

Hi all!

This is just a quick reminder that if I am right all these Midi issues are still there. Now we are near 2025, I’ve pointed out this since May 2023. We can argue if these are bugs or features. But one thing is sure: together 1-4 make NS4 much worse than its predecessor NS3. With NS3 you could use your instrument in way that is now impossible.

1. external control: wheel, exp pedal, aftertouch do not work externally. Especially in Aux KB mode this is very annoying: MIDI controller with mod.wheel, aftertouch and exp.pedal simply cannot use those to control NS4!

That's unfortunate, at least for the aftertouch, I don't think wheel is so much of an issue, because if you have to lift your left hand up to move a wheel, it doesn't matter much which which board the wheel is attached to, does it? I mean, even if the NS4 recognized the mod wheel on the external board, it would just do the same thing the Nord's own wheel is programmed to do, right? And that wheel is probably just as accessible. But aftertouch matters because you want to be able to trigger it from the hand that is playing the sound.

2. local off: you cannot put individual parts to local off mode (for giving them for external control)

There is a terminology issue here... in the world of MIDI, "local off" has a specific meaning, and by definition, it does not apply to individual parts or channels. Many boards DO have ways to selectively prevent one or more individual sounds (from within some larger combination of sounds) from being triggered by the internal keys (while still allowing them to be triggered externally), so I do understand what you want to do (I think)... it's just that that function would not be called Local Off, which is something that always prevents a board's internal keys from directly triggering ANY internal sound, it cannot be restricted to some parts or some channels.

That said, unless I'm misunderstanding what you want, it does seem that there is a way to set individual parts so that they are only triggered externally and not triggered from the internal keys, which I think is what you're asking for. From the manual: "Page 2 of the aux KB menu lets you assign which Layers should be part of the aux KB configuration and be played by incoming MIDI rather than by the internal keyboard." By specifying that such parts should NOT be played from the internal keyboard, I believe that accomplishes what you mean when you talk about wanting to set certain parts to local off, no? If that doesn't do what you're asking, can you clarify what you're looking to do?

3. EXTERN mode of synths: This shuts off corresponding synth. In my opinion this is waste of power of NS4. (In NS3 extern panel was independent of other panels and thus much more convenient and effective)

Are you suggesting that a synth part should be able to simultaneously be a MIDI part (i.e. that part would be a layer of the two sounds)? That could be interesting. Maybe they felt it would be confusing, or there could be frustrating roadblocks (like during performance, not being able to easily adjust the layered internal and external sounds' volumes individually).

Anyway, on balance, I think it's not a bad setup. True, you can no longer have two internal synth sounds plus two external sounds. That NS3 combination does not exist in the NS4. OTOH, you now have two other combinations that did not exist on the NS3... three internal synth sounds, or three external sounds. Different, but not clearly better or worse, at least IMO. (Keeping in mind your premise that these things make NS4 worse than NS3.)

As an aside, there is a way to make *some* use of the EXTERN mode without shutting off the corresponding synth, as described at viewtopic.php?f=3&t=24431 which I just also mentioned in another thread. It's also relevant here, because here is something else the NS4 can do MIDI-wise that the NS3 could not. If I understand correctly, this function allows you to send Program Changes to three external sound sources while playing three internal synth sounds... the NS3 could only do two and two.

4. EXTERN Midi Channels. You can only set those channels on global level. Again this is a setback if you compare NS4 to NS3. In NS3 you can set those ext channels on program level which is much more useful if you work with for example full 16 ch multimbral sound module or synth.

That's indeed a step backwards, though maybe not as bad as you think. To use your example, if you had a 16 ch multitimbral sound module, as long as any of the 16 channels is capable of accessing any of its sounds, you can actually trigger any three of its sounds, regardless of this change. For example, if you can only access channels 4, 5, and 6 of your 16 channel module (as determined in your global MIDI settings), and you're thinking that the sound you want to use is on channel 7, I think really all you have to do is send a Program Change to channel 4, 5, or 6 to call up the sound you would have called up from channel 7, and this new limitation really doesn't come into play.

But I think this can be a real problem if, rather than using a single sound module (with many parts), you were using multiple sound modules (or multiple additional keyboards), such that the sounds you could get on a given MIDI channel could now be entirely different from what's available to you on some other MIDI channel. I do see this as a real limitation compared to the NS3... but also, honestly, one that probably doesn't affect too many players. (Not too many people are gigging with racks of sound modules these days.) Plus there are ways around this... If you wanted to be able to call up sounds from, say, 4 different external sound modules/synths, there would still be a way to do it. There are MIDI routers or (more commonly these days) apps to which you could send a Program Change on a given channel, and the device/app would then route the MIDI to the combination of modules/synths you wanted and their desired sounds, over whatever combination of channels. Yeah, it would be nice to be able to do this all from within the Nord, but at least there's a workaround, for those people trying to control numerous additional devices.

These days, it's probably more common to get sounds from numerous apps than numerous sound modules. While it would be nice to be able to use more than 3 different apps each on their own MIDI channel and select the app and its sound right from the Nord's EXT function (this "brute force" method is sometimes appealing in its simplicity), even apart from the NS4 limitation here, it actually is probably better to run your apps in a host... and once you do that, again, the number of MIDI channels the Nord can directly address becomes pretty much irrelevant, since the host can take input from a given MIDI channel and direct it to as many apps as desired, in whatever combination. I'm talking about apps like Keystage (iPad), GigPerformer (Mac/Win), cantabile (Win), Mainstage (Mac), Camelot Pro (iPad/Mac/Win.) Once you're using such a host, I don't think having the Nord limited to transmitting on 3 channels is particularly limiting anymore. (All these hosts can route to both software and hardware instruments.)

I agree with you that it would be better if Nord restored the ability to specify external MIDI transmit channels per program instead of globally, sometimes it could give you the nice simple/flexible solution to a problem... but in terms of real world usability, my feeling is it probably doesn't affect too many people, at least in a way that can't be reasonably worked around.I guess I'm kind of thinking, if you are integrating multiple external sound sources into your Nord, it's somewhat likely you're going to be the kind of user who might be looking at external routing devices/apps anyway.

[Ecaroh]

1. external control

That's unfortunate, at least for the aftertouch, I don't think wheel is so much of an issue, because if you have to lift your left hand up to move a wheel, it doesn't matter much which which board the wheel is attached to, does it? I mean, even if the NS4 recognized the mod wheel on the external board, it would just do the same thing the Nord's own wheel is programmed to do, right? And that wheel is probably just as accessible. But aftertouch matters because you want to be able to trigger it from the hand that is playing the sound.

Sorry to disagree. I can imagine many ways to use both wheels together. Think about one example: you put some organ drawbars to wheel on NS4 and use ext kb's wheel for synth filter. Same is of course with exp pedal (and AT). In any case there's no excuse why it won't work. EDIT: It was on june 2024 when Nord support replied to my mail ” We too think it’s a very good idea to enable this.” and now soon it’s a year from this reply…

2. local off: you cannot put individual parts to local off mode (for giving them for external control)

There is a terminology issue here... in the world of MIDI, "local off" has a specific meaning, and by definition, it does not apply to individual parts or channels. Many boards DO have ways to selectively prevent one or more individual sounds (from within some larger combination of sounds) from being triggered by the internal keys (while still allowing them to be triggered externally), so I do understand what you want to do (I think)... it's just that that function would not be called Local Off, which is something that always prevents a board's internal keys from directly triggering ANY internal sound, it cannot be restricted to some parts or some channels.

That said, unless I'm misunderstanding what you want, it does seem that there is a way to set individual parts so that they are only triggered externally and not triggered from the internal keys, which I think is what you're asking for. From the manual: "Page 2 of the aux KB menu lets you assign which Layers should be part of the aux KB configuration and be played by incoming MIDI rather than by the internal keyboard." By specifying that such parts should NOT be played from the internal keyboard, I believe that accomplishes what you mean when you talk about wanting to set certain parts to local off, no? If that doesn't do what you're asking, can you clarify what you're looking to do?

If individual part's "Local off" does not sound right to you then you can say "no KB zone" or whatever term is better. Aux KB mode is of course great (** if they correct problem #1 above!), you can give one ore more parts to external control. Problem is of course that everything is controlled with one same (Aux kb) Midi channel. Don't get me wrong, this a great feature: you can have multi layer / split sounds with you second keyboard. BUT if you wanna play for example Synth A with Ch1 and Synth B with ch2 etc. (individually) from sequencer or other midi device, that's impossible. Think about using NS4 like a multitimbral sound module. Well, its now possible but then you must put the whole thing in Local off and you loose NS4's keys and knobs. This is not just a theoretical situation. In my setup I have Elektron Digitone with up to 4 midi tracks and now all this is impossible. With NS3 you could do more because of its panel A/B structure. This is just one example of NS4 taking steps backwards from NS3.

3. EXTERN mode of synths: This shuts off corresponding synth.


Are you suggesting that a synth part should be able to simultaneously be a MIDI part (i.e. that part would be a layer of the two sounds)? That could be interesting. Maybe they felt it would be confusing, or there could be frustrating roadblocks (like during performance, not being able to easily adjust the layered internal and external sounds' volumes individually).

This can be a little hard to explain but I am still strongly committed to my argument that NS4's new MIDI architechture is very badly thought. While it increases multitimbral power (compared to NS3) many users cannot fully take advantage from it. It has became clear to me that my arguments mean nothing to many users who use it mostly standalone. But If you put EXT mode on what's the harm if corresponding synth would remain still active? And with "active" I mean quite same as "no KB zone" or "local off". In other words you could still control it via MIDI from external sequencer for example. And for those users who would not use it like this, nothing harm would happen. And it probably it would be even possible to differentiate ON/OFF from synth from EXT mode if necessary.

(Btw I know there's no hardware limit for this because NS4 had it like this in early OSs. It was a huge disappointment to me that they unimplemented it. Using EXT mode to put synths to No Kb Zone (local off) was kind of a workaround to problem #2 in case of synths)

4. EXTERN Midi Channels. You can only set those channels on global level.
That's indeed a step backwards, though maybe not as bad as you think. To use your example, if you had a 16 ch multitimbral sound module, as long as any of the 16 channels is capable of accessing any of its sounds, you can actually trigger any three of its sounds, regardless of this change. For example, if you can only access channels 4, 5, and 6 of your 16 channel module (as determined in your global MIDI settings), and you're thinking that the sound you want to use is on channel 7, I think really all you have to do is send a Program Change to channel 4, 5, or 6 to call up the sound you would have called up from channel 7, and this new limitation really doesn't come into play.

To me this is indeed a huge step backwards. Think about my case: I have used 16 part / 16 ch Access Virus with my setup for at 8 years now and made a huge repertoire of multi programs which have individual set of sounds in all those channels. Controlling/Playing Virus with NS3 I did not have to think using just three globally set Midi Channels. On contrary I could use them as I liked.

Conclusion from all these 4 problems:
So far there has been only one solution: Keep using my NS3 while NS4 is more like a furniture. This is not very pleasent solution.

[anotherscott]

Sorry to disagree. I can imagine many ways to use both wheels simultaneously. Think about one example: you put some organ drawbars to wheel on NS4 and use ext kb's wheel for synth filter... In any case there's no excuse why it won't work.

I guess I wasn't clear. I wasn't suggesting there aren't good reasons to want a mod wheel on one board to do something different from the mod wheel on the other board. I'm just not sure it's possible for the for the NS4 architecture to "separate" morph functions such that, for example, mod wheel (CC1) received externally could morph synth layer A as triggered from the external keys, without also morphing synth layer B (and/or other piano/organ sounds) as triggered from the internal keys. So addressing your complaint may not be as simple as just having the NS4 recognize CC1 when it comes from the aux keyboard. You also need that instance of CC1 to only affect those externally triggered sounds, leaving the NS4's own wheel to morph only the internally triggered sounds (in order to prevent the issue I mentioned, where both wheels do the same thing, i.e. always implementing every morph that has been made part of the Program). That's what I thought could be the stumbling block to implementing this, it may not be something the NS4 design can easily support. IOW, to use your example, it may not be trivial to have the ext kb's wheel affect synth filter without also having it affect those organ drawbars, i.e. without having that second wheel fully duplicate all the same functions that the internal wheel does. Maybe I'm wrong, and this isn't an issue, but Nord's morphing is pretty different from how modulation routing is done on the more typical workstation-style boards.

if you wanna play for example Synth A with Ch1 and Synth B with ch2 etc. (individually) from sequencer or other midi device, that's impossible. Think about using NS4 like a multitimbral sound module.

To me, this sounds like complaining that the board isn't something it never claimed to be. It is not designed to be a workstation, it is not designed to be a multi-timbral sound module, even though it can perform some of those functions to a limited extent. I'd say that if someone needs these functions, the Nord isn't the right board, as opposed to saying that Nord screwed up by not providing capabilities for things the board was not really designed for in the first place, and that probably relatively little of their target customer base would care about. (Which also gets to your comment, "It has became clear to me that my arguments mean nothing to many users who use it mostly standalone.")

I expect that Nord is always balancing what they think many of their potential customers are likely to really need against the complexity of adding more operating modes and menu options. Part of Nord's appeal is relative simplicity, and part of that simplicity comes from NOT having too many options. Having the things you need buried among a greater number of things you don't care about does make it harder to get to what you need. I'm sure we all have lists of things we think they really should include, and we're all disappointed, and sure they have sometimes made the wrong decision. It can still be the best board for many things. (Personally, like many people, off the top of my head, I wish we could over-ride a fixed split point, and I wish the Stage had velocity morph like their synths do... both of which I'd find far more useful than these MIDI enhancements!)

With NS3 you could do more because of its panel A/B structure.

OTOH, the NS4 has some additional "multi-timbral MIDI module" functionality because you can put pianos, organs, and synths each on their own MIDI channel, which you could not do on the NS3. I'm not sure I see a clear better or worse here, just different, where some people may prefer what the NS3 did and some might prefer what the NS4 does. (Though let's face it, neither board makes for a particularly impressive multitimbral module!)

This is how Nord always is. NS4 buyers will miss some things from the NS3 (besides what you've mentioned, I hear a chorus of "song mode!"), NS3 buyers missed things from the NS2 (pending load, additional endless encoders, bank buttons, latch/KB gate, complete clav EQs), Electro 6 buyers miss some organ functionality and Set List mode from the Electro 5... and so it goes. As analogika's sig says,"the Nord giveth, the Nord taketh away."

But If you put EXT mode on what's the harm if corresponding synth would remain still active? And with "active" I mean quite same as "no KB zone" or "local off". In other words you could still control it via MIDI from external sequencer for example. And for those users who would not use it like this, nothing harm would happen. And it probably it would be even possible to differentiate ON/OFF from synth from EXT mode if necessary.

(Btw I know there's no hardware limit for this because NS4 had it like this in early OSs. It was a huge disappointment to me that they unimplemented it)

I could see this being a nice enhancement. If it is currently possible to have a synth section also function as a "no KB zone" external sound (i.e. just sending a Program Change); it would be nice to be able to do the reverse... essentially set up the exact same synth/ext layer but assign the keys to the ext sound instead of assigning the keys to the internal sound. It's interesting that you say they did support this early on. I wonder why they didn't keep it. Did they feel it was unnecessarily complicated for the user? Did it create some problem? Though honestly, it's not something I'd be likely to use. Maybe they felt its use case was so small (among their intended customers) that it was not worth any possible confusion that might arise from it? Which getting back to your "what's the harm" question, also gets back to how just the presence of more options--even options you'll never use (or maybe *especially* options you'll never use)--makes a board seem more complicated. e.g. it's easier to find the option you're looking for if it's in a list of 5 than if it's in a list of 10.

4. EXTERN Midi Channels. You can only set those channels on global level.
That's indeed a step backwards, though maybe not as bad as you think. To use your example, if you had a 16 ch multitimbral sound module, as long as any of the 16 channels is capable of accessing any of its sounds, you can actually trigger any three of its sounds, regardless of this change. For example, if you can only access channels 4, 5, and 6 of your 16 channel module (as determined in your global MIDI settings), and you're thinking that the sound you want to use is on channel 7, I think really all you have to do is send a Program Change to channel 4, 5, or 6 to call up the sound you would have called up from channel 7, and this new limitation really doesn't come into play.

To me this is indeed a huge step backwards. Think about my case: I have used 16 part / 16 ch Access Virus with my setup for at 8 years now and made a huge repertoire of multi programs which have individual set of sounds in all those channels. Controlling/Playing Virus with NS3 I did not have to think using just three globally set Midi Channels. On contrary I could use them as I liked.

Again, I wonder how many Stage users are pairing with a 16-part external module, with all of its desired sounds already programmed into specific locations. It seems like a narrow use case to me. But again, there are pros and cons to what Nord has done here. On NS3, you could set any EXT zone to any of 16 channels, but you only had two EXT zones. Now you can only choose from 3 channels, but OTOH you now have three EXT zones. And the limitation is mitigated by the fact that, in practice. in most cases, someone with an external module can call up any of its sounds on any of its channels. Or alternatively, they may use global "combi" presets where a single Program Change sent to a single master channel gives them all 16 channels' worth of sounds, to whatever extent they want them. The use case of wanting to access certain external sounds on certain channels and only those channels seems to be to be a niche use within a niche use.

[Ecaroh]

I’ve done this talk many times, so I won’t repeat myself too much here. Anyway you’re right that most users are probably happy with their instrument. If there were more like me Nord would likely pay more attention to these issues. To be precise still I don’t understand why there is no more complainig about #1 (Aux kb wheel, AT etc). If nothing else, I think at least it would be disturbing to anyone using two kb setups.

You are also right that original Stage was no meant to be a workstation or sound module. But general problem (and stupidity IMO) is thar Stage has developed since that time, it has nowadays much more memory and multitimbrality and could be also used more like e.piano + a sound module in live setups. To me it’s waste of power if you have 7 engines from which you normally probably take just 1-3 at time and you cannot give others to external control. Simply put it has power you cannot fully realize. This problem - they have developed multimbrality but not corresponding MIDI - is epidemic in whole Nord product line. Take Nord Grand 2 for example: they introduced one more synth engine which can only be used internally. You cannot play accordeon or strings with second kb which would nicely fit on top of it.

Finally it would be little more acceptable if Stage has been always like this but it isn’t. As I’ve said many times these issues are steps backwards from NS3. I have NS3 and NS4 and I am still using NS3 with my gig setup. Why the heck I would be doing that if NS4 was better for my gigs? There are improvements of course (one synth and FXs) but ”midiwise” it’s a huge step backwards. Nord is trapped in their buble and they cannot think outside this buble (and so are many users here). They are clearly lacking MIDI understanding. Compared to most real challenges like seamless transitions, physical modeling, FX algoritms etc. MIDI programming is ancient and VERY VERY simple. They just haven’t thougt it through properly.

[MartinJ2EX]

Here's a real example of how Nord Stage 4's "updated" features impact my projects:

Extern A (ProgramChange only) is set to Ch 16, sending patch changes to my System-8
Extern B is not used
Extern C (ProgramChange only) is set to Ch 13, sending patch change to my CME H4MIDI
Global Ch is set to Ch14, always sending and receiving

System-8 Lower Layer is set to Ch14, Upper Layer Ch15, Ch16 is for receiving PCs

Global Ch is set to Ch14, which sends notes to my System-8
therefore, System-8 always receives notes on the Lower layer

For patches where I only play one sound on my System-8, lower layer is off or at 0 volume.
If I want to play a S8-sound from my Stage 4, it receives Ch14 notes on the activated Lower layer. Fortunately, System-8 has a "key range" function for both layers, which can be set independently from a split point and offset in octaves)
patches without any sound from my System-8 have a "SILENT" patch with both layers set to 0 volume.

For some patches, I do need both sounds from the System-8 (Lower Layer always receives notes from Stage 4) while playing the Stage 4, too.
This is where I'm helpless with Stage 4.

Workaround 1: use my MacBook running Logic to send / or not send MIDI notes to System-8
Workaround 2: use the CME H4MIDI to block Ch14 on patches where I need both layers on the System-8... AND block ControlPedal, because it triggers a weird Volume/Expression function on my System-8 where the volume of the patch can't be edited in any menu setting, only with the pedal...

So why all these workarounds, why not just get a Fantom or Kronos if you need more than 3 synth/sample sounds?
Because I love my Nord, and I love the immediacy and realtime controls and the sounds, all of them including strings/brass etc...
All I want is to play all 3 synth layers while also independently triggering 2 layers on my System-8 while sending only PC on Layer C Ch16...

If it was working on a 15-year old Nord Stage 2, why should I now have to switch to a workstation instead of a Nord Stage 4 that should be more powerful than its predecessor?

6 months ago, I sent an Email to clavia support and suggested to add an "advanced" mode to the way the Extern mode works.
Extern Mode is parallel to Synth, Layer “Internal” ABC + “External” ABC
Activating the “Extern” function just switches the mode and one has to activate or deactivate the keyboard zone for external, switching back keeps the assignments and zones but keeps the internal synth available as well.
This way, I can play 3 internal sounds and also 3 external synth(s) layers.
... all this while also setting an independent split zone, independent sustain pedal output / pitchbend range from the underlaying Synth layer...
... send aftertouch, send wheel, send pitchbend, send pc all in the menu like it has been on Stage 2/2EX.


I'm still hopeful and confident they can fix this and keep their customers who only need a few tiny workstation features and love the immediacy of their nords...

[anotherscott]

To be precise still I don’t understand why there is no more complainig about #1 (Aux kb wheel, AT etc). If nothing else, I think at least it would be disturbing to anyone using two kb setups.

It does seem like an odd oversight (esp. since they did have similar functionality on the NS3), which is why I wondered if maybe it's just more difficult to implement independently in the NS4 architecture than it seems. I guess a workaround could be to set up your Program to do your main keyboard morphs from one controller (e.g. mod wheel) and your external keyboard morphs from another (the control pedal, still plugged into the NS4 itself). But of course, that cuts down on the total number of morphs available to you. I mentioned that, personally, I would find the lack of AT support to be the most problematic, the most difficult to work around. Though OTOH, I suspect that many people using a second keyboard don't have AT on that keyboard anyway. But yes, I agree, if Nord can support more controllers on AuxKB, it would be valuable, and would not add any user complexity. (Even though there are other changes that I personally would find more useful than this one, including things that likewise they have done better in the past on other boards.)

Take Nord Grand 2 for example: they introduced one more synth engine which can only be used internally. You cannot play accordeon or strings with second kb which would nicely fit on top of it.

This happens to be the exact reason I ruled out buying a Nord Piano early on... the fact that I could not set it so I could play the piano sound from its own keys while triggering its sample layer from an external board.

I have NS3 and NS4 and I am still using NS3 with my gig setup. Why the heck I would be doing that if NS4 was better for my gigs? There are improvements of course (one synth and FXs) but ”midiwise” it’s a huge step backwards.

Yeah, we're back to the Nord giveth, the Nord taketh away. I went from the NS2 to the NS3, and definitely missed some things, but on balance, the 3 was better for me. Ultimately, though, I sold the NS3 a while back, and am now seriously considering the NS4. As it happens, the MIDI limitations you've mentioned wouldn't affect my usage. I wouldn't need to morph sounds from an external controller. While it would be convenient to be able to specify MIDI EXT transmit channels program-by-program as was done in the past, I could work around that without much difficulty (esp. since my external sounds would likely be coming from a Mac or iPad, where hosting environments easily handle any MIDI channel re-routing that might otherwise have been needed).

Here are things that would make the NS4 more desirable than the NS3 for my own usage, listed roughly in order of importance:

* 8 patch recall buttons instead of 5, with a screen that tells you what sounds would currently be invoked by each of those buttons

* Section presets (esp. piano/EP), with their own EQ/effects settings, making it much easier to re-use your favorite piano/EP etc. sounds in new Programs

* vibrato settings within samples... not quite as much of a fix as I would have hoped for, but welcomed nonetheless. The NS3 bugged me because there was a single universal vibrato setting, and I really wanted two, selectable by Program. I could come up with one setting that worked well with synthy sounds but was terrible for acoustic instrument sounds, and I could come up with one setting that was the reverse. No matter what, the built-in vibrato was basically useless for half my sounds. NS4 still does not put that under my control, but at least with the Nord supplied samples, I should be able to get more natural vibratos that are appropriate for the particular sound. (I don't suppose the Nord Sample Manager allows you to adjust these parameters for your own custom samples, does it?)

* LED indicators next to the drawbars

* double the sample memory

* maybe the upgraded action i.e. triple sensor, need to try that first-hand to see how much difference that makes

{ETA: I think the removal of the dual-panel layering interface in favor of individual section layers is another advantage of the 4 for me, though I’m not sure which has the better synth interface… the 3 at least has more knobs. I'll have to get some hands-on experience with the 4 to really evaluate that aspect.}

[Mighty Motif Max]

I’ve done this talk many times, so I won’t repeat myself too much here. Anyway you’re right that most users are probably happy with their instrument. If there were more like me Nord would likely pay more attention to these issues. To be precise still I don’t understand why there is no more complainig about #1 (Aux kb wheel, AT etc). If nothing else, I think at least it would be disturbing to anyone using two kb setups.

You are also right that original Stage was no meant to be a workstation or sound module. But general problem (and stupidity IMO) is thar Stage has developed since that time, it has nowadays much more memory and multitimbrality and could be also used more like e.piano + a sound module in live setups. To me it’s waste of power if you have 7 engines from which you normally probably take just 1-3 at time and you cannot give others to external control. Simply put it has power you cannot fully realize. This problem - they have developed multimbrality but not corresponding MIDI - is epidemic in whole Nord product line. Take Nord Grand 2 for example: they introduced one more synth engine which can only be used internally. You cannot play accordeon or strings with second kb which would nicely fit on top of it.

Finally it would be little more acceptable if Stage has been always like this but it isn’t. As I’ve said many times these issues are steps backwards from NS3. I have NS3 and NS4 and I am still using NS3 with my gig setup. Why the heck I would be doing that if NS4 was better for my gigs? There are improvements of course (one synth and FXs) but ”midiwise” it’s a huge step backwards. Nord is trapped in their buble and they cannot think outside this buble (and so are many users here). They are clearly lacking MIDI understanding. Compared to most real challenges like seamless transitions, physical modeling, FX algoritms etc. MIDI programming is ancient and VERY VERY simple. They just haven’t thougt it through properly.

Scott and I have been discussing this issue on the MPN Keyboard Corner as well...I am firmly on the side of disliking the midi limitations, because they impact the way I typically like to run a 2-keyboard rig (upper keyboard as a controller for various auxiliary sounds on the Nord). I would like to have the option to have the controller's mod wheel in particular functioning separately on the Aux KB channel...sustain and pitch bend work but others do not. This is mainly for ergonomics and being able to control different parameters separately for local vs aux-kb sounds. I have changed the way my rig is set up to compensate by using internal sounds of the upper keyboard instead, but it's honestly frustrating as my best upper keyboard in terms of keybed feel is a soundless controller, and I would love to use that with the NS4.

[Ecaroh]

This is just a reminder that we're now close to May 2025 and MIDI problems are still there.

The most amazing one IMO is that you still cannot use Aux KB with Aftertouch, Exp Pedal or wheel. This problem (ID #11 on bug list) is from April 2023, so it has been there for two years now! I really feel that we should not tolerate this. When talking to them Nord has admitted that this is a problem and promised to put effort to fix it. And nothing. What the h*** is wrong with this company nowadays?

[cphollis]

Well, maybe Nord disagrees with you as to the importance of this issue. Lots of other NS4 original problems got fixed quickly, but not this one.

Could there perhaps be a reason?

Could it be that Nord wants to position the NS4 as the "master controller" vs. a subsidiary sound source controlled by other instruments?

Could it be that they have a different vision regarding what their product should do vs. your desires?

Meanwhile, they appear to be selling boatloads of the NS4 as it's currently top-of-the-heap for performing.

If I were you, I'd sell your NS4 and get a board that was designed to what you want it to do, as this doesn't look like it's going to be addressed anytime soon -- for good reasons.

Or you can continue to rant here ...

[Ecaroh]

Well if it’s like you said why did they have this aux kb mode in first place? I am sorry if you don’t understand the idea how some users might want to use their instrument connected to other midi gear. Just like they used to do with NS3.