Has the NordWave a filter-envelope bug?

[saverio]

hi guys!

Playing with the NW stuffs I noticed a strange bug(?)

Playing "staccato" notes, the filter envelope retriggers the entire attack time from zero (relative zero obviously) at every keypress; and this is ok but, if I set a long release time and i play staccato but quick notes I should hear the filter quite open at every keypress, not at zero (or relative zero) value sounding closed...

This sounds very strange to me because I played other synthesizers (like Korg MS20, Moog Minimoog and also digital ones like Minimax ASB etc...) and this is the first time I hear this kind of behaviour in a filter envelope...

So, here:

• inviluppo-minimax-nordwave.mp3

you can hear the difference between a Minimax and a NordWave playing staccato notes, the difference is clear to me and I don't understand if this is a BUG or not...

So, maybe that Nord Wave filter envelope has a bug? If yes, how a NordLead/2x or a NordStage/2 filter envelope works?

[saverio]

...is anyone interested in this post?

[mjbrands]

Well, I was typing a long reply a while ago, but didn't really have the time to do it properly so I thought I'd just let someone else do eet. But apparently noone did :-p

[mjbrands]

Playing "staccato" notes, the filter envelope retriggers the entire attack time from zero (relative zero obviously) at every keypress; and this is ok but, if I set a long release time and i play staccato but quick notes I should hear the filter quite open at every keypress, not at zero (or relative zero) value sounding closed...

Unlike analog synths, digital synths start oscillators, LFOs and envelopes from the absolute start. Free-running oscillators, LFOs (unless it's a global one) and envelopes are generally unavailable since they're more difficult to implement on a DSP (digital synth), while on an analog synth it is hard not to implement a free-running one.

From your description above I get the impression you expect the filter to be open when you play the second staccato note (because of the long release). However, it will not be open; the envelope will restart from the beginning and will start opening again. This is assuming you've set up the program you are playing to be monophonic (possibly legato).

Even though the Wave has two slots (it is bi-tembral), it has 18 voices which are dynamically allocated where needed. Every voice is separated from the other ones and has their own oscillator, LFOs and envelopes - it is essentially just a bit of computing power on the DSPs in the Wave. If you retrigger a sound (that is set to be mono instead of polyphonic), it might not even start on the same 'voice' like it would on a real analog synth. Since that new sound has its own oscillator (because its on a new 'voice' and/or the oscillator is restarted) the phase of the sound may change. Even if the attack of the amplifier envelope is set to 0 and the filter is all the way open there might be a little dip in volume - I haven't looked at if this is the case on the Wave.

This sounds very strange to me because I played other synthesizers (like Korg MS20, Moog Minimoog and also digital ones like Minimax ASB etc...) and this is the first time I hear this kind of behaviour in a filter envelope...

Well, the 'analog' synths I've played with had digital oscillators (DCO's), LFOs and envelopes and and analog (low-pass) filter (and amplifier). Stuff like the DSI Prophet '08 and Poly Evolver and small custom synths like the Immutable Instruments Shruthi-1. On my virtual analogs (like a Waldorf Blofeld and Access Virus TI) it worked similarly.

[saverio]

so, this maybe a precise choice by Clavia, because other virtual analog synths sounds different.

damn clavia! why don't let us to choose the kind of envelope we just want to use?

at this point, for me a firmware improvement would be welcome

[afrk61]

A firmware update would be more than welcome for many reason (already listed), but .... I think that clavia will not invest time anymore in the NW

what a pity

[mjbrands]

so, this maybe a precise choice by Clavia, because other virtual analog synths sounds different.

Ehm, I don't understand it; maybe I wasn't clear in my earlier post.

I think the envelopes on the Wave work exactly the same as on pretty much every other virtual analog, such as the Waldorf Blofeld, Access Virus TI and Nord Lead 2X (I've had those, but don't have them anymore). Envelopes get retriggered (start from the beginning, the attack part, again) when a voice starts a new sound (which might actually be the same note). This is especially noticible if you set the Wave in mono mode. The same goes for LFOs.

If, however, you set the Wave in legato mode, envelopes do not get retriggered. The downside is that the voice does not immediately sound at the note corresponding to the key pressed, but instead slides (glides) to the new value. The speed with which this happens can be set with the Glide knob. Note that on the Wave you can only use legato in monophonic mode (it is a specific mono mode). See page 16 of the manual for more info, the 'Mono Mode button' section. On something like the Moog Little Phatty this works the same way.

Unlike the other Nord synths (except maybe the Nord Modulars), the Nord Lead 3 (three) can actually be set to a polyphonic legato mode, in which envelopes don't get retriggered. I haven't looked at the details though. On my DSI Poly Evolver you can turn retriggering of envelopes off; if you don't they work the same as on the Wave.

I'm sure I can babble about some more somewhat related things and start on DCOs and VCOs, but that probably won't make things clearer.

[saverio]

but I was talking about staccato notes (obviously with legato mode active...) that's the point of the question so, why on analogs and other virtual analogs the filter envelope retriggers from the point in wich the filter is in that precise moment?

...at this point maybe that my question will not be answered

[saverio]

Saverio, as I understand it, it is like you said, simply a choice from Clavia. Although there seems to exist a 'classic' way to retrigger an evelope, this doesn't mean that it should be good one, and Clavia decided to retrigger from zero. I think the 'classic' way was just a limitation (in the sense that in those days it couldn't have been in any other way) but also very musical.

[saverio]

I know

The real point of my question is that I'm just little bit disappointed about the Clavia choice to implement just one way to do that, and they choose to implement the "not classic" behaviour

My "problem" (but may be not only for me) is, for example, to play with some kind of envelope settings in monophonic legato mode avoiding to not play some occasional staccato notes... probably I just used to play analog synths in that "standard" way and I only have to learn to do in the other way

anyway, I still love the NW, even if it has this behaviour

thank you all, guys