Nord Stage 3 vs Stage 3 Compact Keybed/Keyboard Action

[Alexandr74]

If you switch between organ programs, the emulated drawbar settings immediately switch, too. And if you want to change anything, you just push the [+] or [-] button. I don't have that system, but you sometimes hear that setting a drawbar with only [+] and [-] button is not very comfortable: You don't have sufficiently different speeds for full or delicate changes.

The problems are different for the genuine drawbars: You change drawbar settings via programs or by switching to preset II within a program, but the drawbars themselves sit on different places. Let's say, you have a B3 program with 880000113, but the drawbars sit at 737585678 - it's not very intuitive to put the last drawbar from 8 back to 5 if you want to _augment_ the heights. Because of that, I started to use "live mode" in some programs: That way you don't have a preset within the program, but the sound is what you actually have on your drawbars. So you have to decide if you want to play the organ with switching between program presets or play with changing drawbars. Do both is not very intuitive. On the Compact, you only see the actual drawbar settings on the display, if it's not in live mode, and if you are in live mode, there is no preset II at all. Maybe, a pro will find his way with these restrictions - for a beginner like me, it's hard. In spite of those problems, I'm happy with the drawbars.

As far as the versions are concerned: Rev. B exists since April 2019, I think. So most instruments on the market should be the newer model. But you certainly won't know for sure, if you buy from a smaller reseller. When I bought mine in early 2020, I asked the dealer to confirm Rev. B. They even didn't know about the difference. It's easily identified via a [Type] button in the piano section - Rev. A doesn't have that. (see nord-stage-forum-f3/differenet-hardware ... 16574.html)

[Alexandr74]

If you switch between organ programs, the emulated drawbar settings immediately switch, too. And if you want to change anything, you just push the [+] or [-] button. I don't have that system, but you sometimes hear that setting a drawbar with only [+] and [-] button is not very comfortable: You don't have sufficiently different speeds for full or delicate changes.

The problems are different for the genuine drawbars: You change drawbar settings via programs or by switching to preset II within a program, but the drawbars themselves sit on different places. Let's say, you have a B3 program with 880000113, but the drawbars sit at 737585678 - it's not very intuitive to put the last drawbar from 8 back to 5 if you want to _augment_ the heights. Because of that, I started to use "live mode" in some programs: That way you don't have a preset within the program, but the sound is what you actually have on your drawbars. So you have to decide if you want to play the organ with switching between program presets or play with changing drawbars. Do both is not very intuitive. On the Compact, you only see the actual drawbar settings on the display, if it's not in live mode, and if you are in live mode, there is no preset II at all. Maybe, a pro will find his way with these restrictions - for a beginner like me, it's hard. In spite of those problems, I'm happy with the drawbars.

As far as the versions are concerned: Rev. B exists since April 2019, I think. So most instruments on the market should be the newer model. But you certainly won't know for sure, if you buy from a smaller reseller. When I bought mine in early 2020, I asked the dealer to confirm Rev. B. They even didn't know about the difference. It's easily identified via a [Type] button in the piano section - Rev. A doesn't have that. (see nord-stage-forum-f3/differenet-hardware ... 16574.html)

Thank you so much! You helped me a lot

[Hlaalu]

The problems are different for the genuine drawbars: You change drawbar settings via programs or by switching to preset II within a program, but the drawbars themselves sit on different places. Let's say, you have a B3 program with 880000113, but the drawbars sit at 737585678 - it's not very intuitive to put the last drawbar from 8 back to 5 if you want to _augment_ the heights.

Not only it's less intuitive, but the result is ultimately different, sound-wise: with real drawbars, in your example the last drawbar's sound will jump from 3 right to 7 and then to 5, whereas on LED drawbars it will go from 3 to 5, which is more desirable. This is more crucial with higher jumps, like from 0 to 1 when the physical drawbar sits at 8 (0-7-1).

Real vs digital drawbars is an fascinating topic. With encoders, people pretty much agree that the NS2 was better in that it used a few more LED encoders in the Synth and Extern section as opposed to the fixed ones found in the NS3, which only uses LED encoders for the levels of the three sections. And this for the very reasons stated for the drawbars. Yet, when it comes to drawbars, people seem to be more divided because of the fact that there is a model (real Hammonds) to obey to and "respect", and rightly so...

We don't know what Hammond in person would have preferred if he had the option to choose, but to me personally the only real advantages of physical drawbars are twofold: 1) you can drag a bunch of them and pull and push them for sound change effect, and 2) you can quickly adjust them by "shape" as opposed to exact number, without even looking at them. Now the first advantage is somehow replicable on Nords with morphing, while the second one is really lost on LED drawbars: here you have to be more precise with each one of them and this takes more time. I'm really 50/50 as to which style I prefer...

The YC61 which partially solves the problem of "not knowing" which is where, but doesn't solve the sound jumping problem that I was describing. (For this, it would have to have both real drawbars and drawbuttons, but it would require some mental "visual math" before operating, resulting in even slower operation...)

I think the most desirable implementation possible, that operation-wise has all the pros and none of the cons would be motorized drawbars. But then apart from cost and durability, there is the problem that they wouldn't be able to instantly adjust in a millisecond when browsing Programs, so that poses a problem for quick Program changes.

Overall an interesting topic, and food for thoughts for engineers...

[Schorsch]

Very interesting technical challenge - one way to make it more "visible" at least could be the hybrid drawbar solution of the YC61 bit with the LEDs not under but next to the physical drawbars. By this you will always see the active drawbar settings without having the LED covered by the physical drawbar, but the ultimate solution would be motorized drawbars

[Kaffimusic]

Drawbars:
When you like to get the "real" organ feel, the physical drawbars are the way to go. You can grab them, push pull, this is sensitive, feel their setting without looking. Good for dark stages, and if you like to change the settings during play (like me) that´s the thing. I could never live with that button-pressing on the bigger models. Don´t know what Nord was thinking with that. Maybe saving production cost. But, yes, like someone has written before, drawbars with LED like the Yamaha YC would be better.
ModWheel:
I don´t know what you mean with problems.

In the first post you wrote "your dream synthesizer".
The NS3 has in fact a synthesizer. And it sounds pretty good and it is also quite easy and accessible to program. But - in summary this instrument is NOT a synth, not really. Although the synth sounds good, it´s flexibility and options are quite weak, compared to contemporary or even way older workstation-style instruments. The overall layout of the NS is to have 3 engines, and the synth is just one of them. There is a considerable main focus on piano, the organ is fairly good, and - for most users (for what I have seen until now) the synth is a "nice to have", but ranges behind the two other engines. I may describe the NS as a "Stagepiano with organ sim, and it has also a VA-synthesizer that can play samples."
Also, I should mention, you can not manipulate or alter the piano sounds in any considerable way but EQ, 3 stages of velocity and applying FX. That´s it. They are somewhat fixed presets and you can just load what Nord gives you. They do not run through the synth like it is done with the usual Synth/Keyboards that we all know. The synth, as well as the organ are completely separated engines that do not interact with each other, exept you can mix them.
You have to understand that, before you buy something that may not be what you expect.

[Hlaalu]

Very interesting technical challenge - one way to make it more "visible" at least could be the hybrid drawbar solution of the YC61 bit with the LEDs not under but next to the physical drawbars. By this you will always see the active drawbar settings without having the LED covered by the physical drawbar, but the ultimate solution would be motorized drawbars

No but the YC61's drawbar are transparent! You can indeed see both, but when you move a drawbar, the sound will of course jump.

[Alexandr74]

ModWheel:
I don´t know what you mean with problems.

In the first post you wrote "your dream synthesizer".
The NS3 has in fact a synthesizer. And it sounds pretty good and it is also quite easy and accessible to program. But - in summary this instrument is NOT a synth, not really. Although the synth sounds good, it´s flexibility and options are quite weak, compared to contemporary or even way older workstation-style instruments. The overall layout of the NS is to have 3 engines, and the synth is just one of them. There is a considerable main focus on piano, the organ is fairly good, and - for most users (for what I have seen until now) the synth is a "nice to have", but ranges behind the two other engines. I may describe the NS as a "Stagepiano with organ sim, and it has also a VA-synthesizer that can play samples."
Also, I should mention, you can not manipulate or alter the piano sounds in any considerable way but EQ, 3 stages of velocity and applying FX. That´s it. They are somewhat fixed presets and you can just load what Nord gives you. They do not run through the synth like it is done with the usual Synth/Keyboards that we all know. The synth, as well as the organ are completely separated engines that do not interact with each other, exept you can mix them.
You have to understand that, before you buy something that may not be what you expect.[/quote]

Thanks, I understand that. I think that for my purposes, the capabilities of ns3 will be enough. In any case, this is an instrument with a great sound, which is used by many on stage. I think this is a very good basic tool that will satisfy most of my needs. You can always buy some kind of analog synthesizer and there will be a complete super kit)

[anotherscott]

to me personally the only real advantages of physical drawbars are twofold: 1) you can drag a bunch of them and pull and push them for sound change effect, and 2) you can quickly adjust them by "shape" as opposed to exact number, without even looking at them.

and I'd add that you can easily adjust a drawbar at whatever speed you want... quickly get it all the way out or all the way in, or do something more gradual.

Ocean Beach Digital used to make drawbars you could attach to a drawbutton-based Nord, so you'd have your LED display and also have hard drawbars for manipulation which let you address all three of those things, though not being motorized, they would not instantly be in sync with a recalled preset. They don't make it anymore, but there are other controllers you can use, with some effort.

I think the most desirable implementation possible, that operation-wise has all the pros and none of the cons would be motorized drawbars. But then apart from cost and durability, there is the problem that they wouldn't be able to instantly adjust in a millisecond when browsing Programs, so that poses a problem for quick Program changes.

There are ways to handle that... basically, you just don't want to attempt to load every program as you scroll through it. This can be done with direct program addressing (where you call up your saved programs by clicking on a physical or touchscreen button that takes you directly to the program you want rather than having to use a wheel to scroll to it) or by setting up the scroll with something like Nord's previous "pending load" function, where scrolling does not change the sound, it merely alters the display and then you hit a button to actually invoke the sound you land on.

The NS3 has in fact a synthesizer. And it sounds pretty good and it is also quite easy and accessible to program. But - in summary this instrument is NOT a synth, not really. Although the synth sounds good, it´s flexibility and options are quite weak, compared to contemporary or even way older workstation-style instruments.

I disagree about the NS3 not being a real synth. It's synth functions are in the ballpark of the Nord Lead A1, which people buy to be nothing BUT a synth. By your logic, a MiniMoog isn't a synthesizer. Most workstations have not even included virtual analog synths (which sonically behave differently from keyboards that only use samples), nor the dedicated real-time controls which many people find are integral to what they would consider real synth operation/performance. People can have your own preferences as to which of these synth characteristics are or aren't important to them, but the fact that some model doesn't have some characteristics that may be important to you does not stop them from being genuine synths, which just happen to have characteristics that may similarly be the ones that are important to someone else.

[Hlaalu]

Ocean Beach Digital used to make drawbars you could attach to a drawbutton-based Nord, so you'd have your LED display and also have hard drawbars for manipulation which let you address all three of those things, though not being motorized, they would not instantly be in sync with a recalled preset. They don't make it anymore, but there are other controllers you can use, with some effort.

Is this one? http://www.oceanbeachdigital.com/products.html
Looks very cool. From the picture though they seem to cover the LEDs. Also they wouldn't solve the sound jump problem when adjusting, which is intrinsic to non-motorized physical drawbars, and one strength of LEDs over them.

There are ways to handle that... basically, you just don't want to attempt to load every program as you scroll through it. This can be done with direct program addressing (where you call up your saved programs by clicking on a physical or touchscreen button that takes you directly to the program you want rather than having to use a wheel to scroll to it) or by setting up the scroll with something like Nord's previous "pending load" function, where scrolling does not change the sound, it merely alters the display and then you hit a button to actually invoke the sound you land on.

Yes I mean Program changes don't have to be that quick necessarily, I guess it's all going to depend on how quick/slow they are actually going to be. I would be excited if they were ever announced by Nord (or Hammond, or Crumar for the matter). So far this is the only one clonewheel that has them that I am aware of: They seem reasonably quick! It's unfortunate the other features of this keyboard aren't perhaps up to the same level as the other better clones...

[anotherscott]

Is this one? http://www.oceanbeachdigital.com/products.html
Looks very cool. From the picture though they seem to cover the LEDs.

Scroll down the page to the Stage Plate 73 for another mounting approach. You also could place/velcro it to any available surface in your rig. Some models, like the Electro HP, actually have enough free panel space to hold it already. (BTW, it wasn't just for Nords, that module could be programmed to work on a wide variety of keyboards and also VSTs. On keyboards, there were models like Kurzweil SP4-7 that had a drawbar engine but no built-in real-time sliders/drawbars, or models which had only one set of drawbars and you wished for a second set to control a lower manual. So while it was Nord-inspired, it really had numerous uses.)

Also they wouldn't solve the sound jump problem when adjusting

True, and that's part of why I also pointed out that they don't automatically sync to recalled presets.

So far this is the only one clonewheel that has them that I am aware of: They seem reasonably quick! It's unfortunate the other features of this keyboard aren't perhaps up to the same level as the other better clones...

though you could also use that Dexibell to control something like B-3X on an iPad or laptop, and it can be set up so that you would recall your B-3X presets from the Dexibell patch select buttons and the faders will be in sync with the B-3X sounds.