NS4 Feature Request: ADSR Envelopes

[creativespiral]

Really hope that the sustain stage can/will be added in a firmware update, so we have normal ADSR envelopes present in nearly every subtractive synthesizer in the past 40 years. ADSR is available in the Wave 2 Engine... surprised it was left out of Stage 4 the first place.

It's such a key component of subtractive synthesis, especially for making good brass, string and pad sounds.

Please put the 'S' in ADSR!

[SuperStage]

Up vote!

[jonilikeskeys]

Obviously, I would also love to have that.

But right now they implemented a press on the buttons for the envelopes and then you have these three encoders for Attack, Decay and Release.
I don't see any chance they will change that (in NS4) - there's simply one encoder missing and also, hiding the sustain level somewhere an a menu is also not an option, in my opinion.
Hoping for a software update here is just wasted time, sorry. All stages so far only had these three parameters.

Bug fixes - shure.
Reversing design decisions - I don't think so. And ADR is definitely a design decision.

[DerHarms]

I need it too.

[sebi_f]

I would also love to see ADSR it in an "Update Nord Stage 4 OS v2.00"

It seems they are holding back the feature so as not to cannibalize the Nord Wave 2 business but IMHO that's really the high-price top model and how can this cannibalize the business of a cheaper modell?

[jonilikeskeys]

I don't see any chance they will change that (in NS4) - there's simply one encoder missing and also, hiding the sustain level somewhere an a menu is also not an option, in my opinion.

The synth OLED display is at least variable, can display multiple things of course.
You COULD just make the sustain value a SHIFT + middle encoder thing. Nobody would mind that.

It just seems unlikely. But at the same time, they added the long press additionally to SHIFT and even added that to the new panel layout which they could've thought of before February (Release of NS4).

[bnhaug]

of my small group of synthfiends/nord fans, I'm the only one that bought the NS4, the primary complaint was ADR vs ADSR, the second complaint was lack of user-created round-robin and velocity layers in the 'sampler' section. Those complaints are also mine, but mitigated by other gear I have that I'm willing to expose to the road, but there are a few problems now with extern with the latest firmware, so I'm starting to think I made the wrong decision. I have no real brand loyalty to any manufacturer, which it seems Clavia is depending on with their 'leave major features out to keep them wanting more' strategy, which, is great if you're a musician, kind of strange if you're a synth company.

The main unit I have that competes with the NS4 is my PC4 (bought it before the 2700 was out), the primary driver of the decision to switch to a NS4 was, though 256 (with caveats) polyphony, flexible layering, setlist functionality, the amazing flexibility of the VAST system pretty much tick all my boxes, it is a chore to program, and getting samples into it requires the use of some pretty ridiculous, buggy, outdated software. The NS4 dominates the need to make on the fly changes, and while I agree from a user standpoint that the design decision here was to replace flexibility with ease and speed of use, not making ADSR or sampler features available that are on pretty much every synth or sampler made since the 90s, is an increasingly bitter pill to swallow, and arguments for these feature omissions strike me as being driven by marketing and management, and not technical or development limitations. Having to use more of the 2000-era ish 1G of sample memory to accomplish pad sounds I could easily coax out of a proper ADSR in seconds, seems counter-intuitive to the 'ease and speed of use' that is, from where I stand, the NS4's greatest strength.

looking forward to firmware updates, and still willing to give this machine a chance, but those are the considerations I hear again and again when discussing this product with my peers.

[analogika]

I would also love to see ADSR it in an "Update Nord Stage 4 OS v2.00"

It seems they are holding back the feature so as not to cannibalize the Nord Wave 2 business but IMHO that's really the high-price top model and how can this cannibalize the business of a cheaper modell?

They aren’t worried about cannibalisation by their own product. They’ve made tradeoffs, as every manufacturer with every product.

It’s pretty obvious that they’re not going to add a fourth envelope stage to the shipping product, at this point.
But let’s play this through, given the current machine:

I can’t really speak very much to the Stage 4, having only spent a few minutes getting an impression of the synth section, but my impression is that the three variable-purpose “soft knobs” always tend to have useful functionality, sensibly arranged depending upon what parameter set is selected. One of the fundamental tenets of Nord interface design is that every UI element always has a clear function.

A full ADSR would require an extra control — in the case of the Stage 4, an extra variable-purpose endless encoder.
How many of the different modes available to the soft knobs would actually benefit from having a fourth knob? (Question to those sitting in front of a Stage 4)
If most modes wouldn’t actually benefit, what does the extra knob do in those cases where no extra function is available? Just — nothing?

An extra Controller means extra cost (it used to be about parts cost x10 for final consumer), requires either a bigger display or more compact use of the screen real estate, and it adds complexity to the board design.

I wonder if they didn’t actually just make a matrix of possible uses for soft knobs and the extra display, found that the only really useful scenario for a fourth knob is ADSR, and decided it wasn’t worth it?

The Stage 3 at least is a pretty killer synth package, despite sustain only being available at the maximum level, without a decay stage.

[creativespiral]

I would think this is probably a fairly easy thing for them to implement via firmware update, if there's a will to do so.

The Stage 4 synth section is based the Wave 2 -- which has ADSR envelopes, so most likely the IP/code is already developed to support a sustain level after decay. By default, existing patches would have sustain set to 0% or 100%, depending on whether the decay is currently timed, or infinite... so that's a pretty easy issue to account for in a FW update.

This is a high end / high price flagship keyboard... we're paying ~$6k for the 88 model. I was very surprised when I received my Stage 4 that ADSR was not included... just assumed it would be, as nearly every poly synth in the past 40 years has ADSR or better envs... and since its advertised as including the Wave 2 engine.

The question that would need to be resolved is just how to implement it in UI... but there's a variety of ways it could be done. Probably the most straightforward way would be like @jonilikeskeys mentioned above:
> while in Envelope Focus on the Synth OLED Screen, Hold SHIFT and Turn one of the soft knobs, and the screen adjusts Sustain Level (rather than ADR).

If they really wanted to reward customers and give the Stage 4 synth section more utility, they could even use the above UI experience with all three env soft knobs + shift held for: delay, sustain, and hold.. and give us DAHDSR envelopes Not expecting that at all... but just sayin, soft knob UI with shift held could support it.

But just Sustain Level on Amp/Filter Envelopes would make me (and others) happy

[creativespiral]

... the primary complaint was ADR vs ADSR, the second complaint was lack of user-created round-robin and velocity layers in the 'sampler' section...

Yeah, adding round-robin and velocity layer options to the Sample Editor would be amazing as well... and it seems Nord probably already has the IP/code developed for this too, but are just not exposing it to customer facing sample editor... since their factory libraries have this.

I can't think of any downside from a business perspective for letting users have the same sort of tools... only lots of upside.

It would increase the quality and quantity of great sample libraries if users could develop samples like the Nord internal team does. Also would generate a bunch more press and viral marketing - more positive posts and videos for the Nord products, as users would be creating high end sample library sets for various acoustic instruments and classic synths, and posting demos. I've got a variety of instruments that I would love to sample with velocity and/or RR layers... I was working on guitar samples last night and really wishing for at least the velocity layers. Even if just limited to three layers or something, it would really make user samples sound much more dynamic and alive.