Control NS2 with external keyboard?

GeeDeWee · Post by **GeeDeWee** » 08 Jan 2016, 10:10

offrhodes wrote:Latency is one reason why I'd think twice about using an external keyboard:
MIDI is stone age technology and adds several milliseconds of latency that are avoided when playing the built-in keyboard.

Is there really a noticeable latency using an external midi keyboard for organs and synths?
I think about buying an extra keyboard on top of my NS288 for that purpose, but latency would be a no go for me...

offrhodes · Post by **offrhodes** » 08 Jan 2016, 10:24

GeeDeWee wrote: Is there really a noticeable latency using an external midi keyboard for organs and synths?

No, it's not immediately noticeable. Musicians have been using it for decades, there is no doubt that MIDI is a workable solution.

It's easy to find out (e.g. with a software synth or a dry delay) how much latency kills your playing outright.
Then, how much of that poison are you willing to take permanently, with every single note you play in the future?

Fortunately, the "poison" analogy is very subjective. By pharmacological standards, there would be an immediate world-wide emergency ban on MIDI

Post by **pablomastodon** » 08 Jan 2016, 18:11

offrhodes wrote:Fortunately, the "poison" analogy is very subjective. By pharmacological standards, there would be an immediate world-wide emergency ban on MIDI

I disagree. Big Pharm would simply limit sales to Third World countries (after tripling prices)

Post by **RedLeo** » 08 Jan 2016, 18:56

offrhodes wrote:
GeeDeWee wrote: Is there really a noticeable latency using an external midi keyboard for organs and synths?
No, it's not immediately noticeable. Musicians have been using it for decades, there is no doubt that MIDI is a workable solution.

With respect, I don't think it's really fair to scare the guy off with all this. MIDI does of course have latency, but people having been using MIDI to play external keyboards for decades now. Giving him the idea that this is going to be PROBLEM when he doesn't have the experience to know for himself is really subjecting him to your personal dislike, and doesn't paint a fair picture.

From the above quote, ok, you have now finally said that MIDI is workable, but it's a bit late in day, and a bit buried amongst the rest of your dialog.

There is absolutely no reason for the OP not to use MIDI and external keyboards, literally millions of people do it every day, right up to the highest professional levels.

offrhodes · Post by **offrhodes** » 08 Jan 2016, 19:45

Hi Leo,

GeeDeeWee had read something in my post that wasn't actually there (a noticeable latency), so I clarified.

Now you're arguing against your own perception of my post, where it has suddenly turned into a "problem".
I'm actually quite careful not to draw any such conclusions, as I don't want to open that can of worms.

The fact that MIDI works for its intended purpose is obvious, and should be known to anybody who spends several k€ on keyboards.

BTW, the vast majority of gigs where I was in the audience were played on regular keyboards with built-in tone generation. Here in my corner of the woods, MIDI is rarely if ever used for live playing.

Post by **RedLeo** » 08 Jan 2016, 20:50

Oops. Double post.

Post by **RedLeo** » 08 Jan 2016, 20:57

I'm not really trying to have a go at you, it's just that i could see that the OP was getting worried about the whole thing, and I didn't really think that there's anything for him to be concerned about. It's more a case of realising that someone who's a beginner in MIDI isn't able to distinguish for himself the relative importance of the information he's given, and given his situation, worrying about MIDI latency was a worry too far, as it were.

offrhodes wrote:The fact that MIDI works for its intended purpose is obvious, and should be known to anybody who spends several k€ on keyboards

Unfortunately it's often not the case that people know as much as you might expect. We do tend to forget the years of learning and trial-and-error we put into it to know what we know now. All the OP really needed was an answer along the lines of "Yes, you can do that, and this is how".

Personally I would love to see a thread about MIDI related issues as it's a subject of considerable interest to me, and I'll happily shoot the breeze with you about anything related to that

No harm was intended.

GeeDeWee · Post by **GeeDeWee** » 10 Jan 2016, 12:41

offrhodes wrote:GeeDeeWee had read something in my post that wasn't actually there (a noticeable latency), so I clarified.

Well maybe I misinterpreted your post. It seemed to me, you would think twice because of the latency. So I thought then the latency would also be noticeable and asked about that.

offrhodes wrote:Latency is one reason why I'd think twice about using an external keyboard:

But it's all clear now. And it's great that there's a forum where people take the time to give awnsers to questions in the first place!

offrhodes · Post by **offrhodes** » 10 Jan 2016, 18:13

(please ignore)

offrhodes · Post by **offrhodes** » 10 Jan 2016, 19:10

RedLeo wrote: ...
No harm was intended.

No harm done

To put this into perspective, here is a did a quick latency measurement (Stage 2 EX):
- Electric (mono) piano on Slot A panned hard right
- An identical piano on slot B
- Dual KBD mode
- A MIDI cable from OUT to IN
- All MIDI transmit channels off except EXTERNAL (same as dual KBD channel)
- Recorded the signal in Cubase

I'm reading off a delay of 2.3 ms. During that time, sound travels 75 cm or 2.5 feet.
So getting rid of MIDI could be compared to moving a bit closer to the monitor speaker (of course, there are other reasons than delay why sound quality changes, for better or worse).
This is IMO a very good result, try to beat that with a software synth.

Note that the controller may send only on a single channel (e.g. disable GLOBAL send), otherwise it'll add about 1 ms per additional channel.

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