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Re: I'm Thinking About Giving Up on Nord

Postby bluetrain » 09 May 2023, 03:21

I still advocate for the quality of the Nord piano (and other) sounds, even though I experience the same mid-range, honky/boomy sound described above when playing through my two QSC K12.2's (so, it's not a mono vs. stereo issue). I have always enjoyed the sound quality listening through headphones, too. It's surely not a matter of external speakers vs. headphones, though, because I have recorded myself (direct, line-in to computer) and played it back through my home stereo system (an ordinary audio/video control receiver with external, controlled impedance wide-range speakers) and it still sounds great. I think it's just the QSC's, tbh. It's like the EQ is just wrong and you can't fix it.
Last edited by bluetrain on 09 May 2023, 04:28, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: I'm Thinking About Giving Up on Nord


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Re: I'm Thinking About Giving Up on Nord

Postby bluetrain » 09 May 2023, 04:35

I should also say that it's not just QSC's. I used to have a Roland KB300 and had the same dissatisying experience, although back in those days I only had one KB300 (mono) and a Roland RD-700, so I didn't think much of it.
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Re: I'm Thinking About Giving Up on Nord

Postby JeffLearman » 09 May 2023, 17:24

cgrafx wrote:I don't know how many times I'm going to have to pound this into people. As useful a speaker as the QSC K8.2 is, it is NOT a full range speaker. Your expecting a mid-high cabinet to do something it wasn't designed to do. The reason pianos sound better in headphones is that headphones when properly coupled to your ear are full range speakers with real frequency response down to 20-30hz.

The K8.2 is full-range enough for me. I roll off the lows in any case. I'm not the bass player. My CP4 sounds just like I want it to. All Nord pianos have this honk I don't care for regardless of how they're amplified, but admittedly, less so in headphones. I don't think it's a lack of bass response. Other DPs don't have this annoying honk. It's not an artifact of the K8's, which do just what I need, without a sub (but I'm sure I could get a good deal more volume from them with a sub!)
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Re: I'm Thinking About Giving Up on Nord

Postby ajstan » 10 May 2023, 03:41

JeffLearman wrote:
dkernohan wrote:>They are being marketed to US - we, the keyboard nerds of the world - because for some reason WE are obsessed with replicating that acoustic piano as closely as possible.
That's the truth!

Because covers bands are increasingly expected to sound exactly like the recordings everyone knows keyboard players are expected to have a range of examples of well-recorded studio piano sounds.

Really? I'll have to take your word for it -- I'm a "pro-am" player at best. But what I find is that nobody in the audience cares that much about keyboard tone: they care about how well the instrument is played. I still see people playing RD-700 and the audience loves it or not depending on the quality of playing, not the instrument.

Of course, it's also funny -- but true -- that the original band can play a song any way they want, but a cover band is expected to nail the studio recording.

I got a real lesson in the relative importance of tone vs technique when I was approaching a band playing at an art fair. From a distance, I thought "Gee, hot fiddle player." As I got closer, I realized it was a keyboard. And as I got really close, I noticed that the violin patch was really not very good, but the player was nailing the way a fiddle player plays so well that it didn't matter. Plus I've heard great piano players make amazingly good music on terrible pianos.

So I think the bottom line is that we keyboard players, and possibly producers and engineers, care about details of piano realism and tone, but hardly anyone else. Most people mostly just care about the music. That or how hot the singer looks.

I think these two posts could be the start of an interesting thread. What do you see as the expectations of the audience, your bandmates (if you're not a solo act), and yourself for your keyboard sound design and the parts you play for the genre of your music?

In my world (late 70's, early 80's lite/soft/yacht rock) having an array of APs (grands and uprights), EPs/Wurlis, and Electric Grands helps to capture the vibe of the songs we cover and the instruments that were used. I record the FOH for all the gigs with a Zoom Q2n-4K and send out the recordings to everyone so we can see how well we mesh and adjust our parts and sounds accordingly.

Being somewhat of a hybrid of a tribute and cover band, our perspective is that our audience is there to relive the energy and feeling of being at a live show of the original artists, not to hear a re-creation of a studio recording, which would be an absolute snooze-fest. Play the song in the original key, add live energy, hit the familiar riffs, make the sounds authentic, and keep the instruments clean and distinct in the mix. We also pay for quality PA equipment and a top-notch sound engineer when they are not provided by the venue.

As to the topic at-hand, I am extremely happy with how similar the programs I create (piano, organ, and synth) sound through my monitors at home and FOH at gigs.
Last edited by ajstan on 10 May 2023, 03:42, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: I'm Thinking About Giving Up on Nord

Postby cphollis » 10 May 2023, 04:50

I can pick up on @ajstan's thread, as I play somewhat similar music [pop rock vocal classics 60s-80s] in a somewhat similar band. What do I expect from my keyboards?

My expectations are simple (1) the keys sound amazing and present in the live mix, and (2) I can focus primarily on listening and playing, and not adjusting my instrument through the night. I am extremely happy with how my keys sound in the mix, and there's enough variety from song to song and part to part to keep it sonically interesting for everyone. And because all the performance knobs are right there, I can quickly adjust any aspect of the sound I'm making.

I do check out some of the other brands occasionally, and some have their strengths. I think people who do mostly studio work might have more options to consider (including all sorts of software instruments) but for live work I can't ask for any better.
I think I have gear issues ....
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Re: I'm Thinking About Giving Up on Nord

Postby lawman » 26 Jun 2023, 10:38

Good news. Very good news.

When I started this thread, I was disheartened over my Nord acoustic piano sound. I bought my first Nord, an NP3, in 2017, followed by an NP4 and an NG, and I never was happy with the AP sounds, except through headphones. When amplified, they always sounded harsh and grating, particularly in the area from around F4 through Ab5 (when using the White Grand sample), no matter how much I futzed around with the three-band EQ, Compression and Timbre controls on the front panel. EP’s were good. Sample Synths OK. AP’s disappointing.

I never expected my digital sounds to rival those of an actual, honest-to-God piano with steel and copper strings and soundboards made of shaped spruce. I did, though, expect Nords to sound at least as good live as their competition. I was never satisfied with the common explanation that “Nord sounds are raw samples, not processed and beautifulized like those of other manufacturers.” If that is so, I asked myself, then how can they sound so good through headphones and in videos? (I know, I know, headphones always sound better, but the difference is more pronounced with Nords). Also, I’ve read the speculation, entirely plausible, that Nord and others employ sophisticated electronic alchemy in demos. However, when asked about this, Pablo Mastodon (who old-timers will remember as the official Nord go-to-guy for US technical support in days gone by) responded, “Online Nord demos are always “dry” except as noted. [In this instance, a little reverb.] They are certainly not running things through outboard gear or VST effects processing prior to publishing demos.” Well, huh.

Expensive amplification didn’t solve the problem, nor did a custom-designed hand-soldered preamp/DI. Modest (though not insignificant) acoustic treatment likewise didn’t get me there, even when I placed the speakers close to my ears to further reduce room effects. Running a stereo signal from my headphones output instead of the regular outs made no discernible difference.

However, my new NS4C, in addition to its other extensive functionality, has something that my previous boards did not: an adjustable low pass filter. Eureka! To my ears, a setting of somewhere around 1.6 – 1.8 kHz tames the beast. My APs now sound rich, polished and first-rate, without the previous digital harshness. Although I need to experiment further with layering and with the other panel controls, this is the magic bullet that I’ve been looking for. Had I known how much difference it would make I would have bought an LPF a long time ago. Perhaps in the future a more detailed EQ and a good compressor will bring even more musical delight, but for the time being I’m all smiles.

Many thanks to all of you who have taken the time to share your thoughts and advice. This isn’t the end of the journey, but it certainly is one giant leap.

I’m glad I didn’t give up on Nord.
Last edited by lawman on 26 Jun 2023, 10:42, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: I'm Thinking About Giving Up on Nord

Postby cgrafx » 26 Jun 2023, 18:01

So lets recap.. what you discovered is rolling off the Mid-high frequencies of your Mid-High speaker cabinet effectively forcing the cabinet to product more bass frequencies (something like a subwoofer might do) makes your piano sound better.

I can't imagine how that might happen.
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Re: I'm Thinking About Giving Up on Nord

Postby maxpiano » 26 Jun 2023, 18:20

cgrafx wrote:So lets recap.. what you discovered is rolling off the Mid-high frequencies of your Mid-High speaker cabinet effectively forcing the cabinet to product more bass frequencies (something like a subwoofer might do) makes your piano sound better.

I can't imagine how that might happen.


+1, considering that an old analog telephones had a frequency range up to 3.4 Khz, a low pass filter at 1.8Khz would make the sound even worse than that...
Last edited by maxpiano on 26 Jun 2023, 18:20, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: I'm Thinking About Giving Up on Nord

Postby maurus » 26 Jun 2023, 21:10

Well, depending on the audio chain and room it may well be that the high frequencies had been overemphasized. If so, taming the range above 2 kHz with a suitably flat curve could perhaps take away harshness in the sound without cutting the highs too much. Some tweeters intended for large spaces don't exactly sound natural in smaller rooms - and large glass windows in the room etc. might even make this worse. Etc.
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Re: I'm Thinking About Giving Up on Nord

Postby lawman » 26 Jun 2023, 21:15

Looking back at my original post, I see that I did not mention that I had a couple of nice RCF subs working in tandem with the TT08-A's. It simply didn't occur to me that anyone would find it germane, as I've never before seen harshness discussed as being a low-end problem. Nevertheless, the Focal Trio6 Be's make it unnecessary to use a sub, both in my own experience and based on reviews by others. I don't think that they could be called a "Mid-High speaker cabinet" by any means. However, cgrafx, I would be very interested to know the source of your information that they have "a pretty steep fall-off at 60hz."
And maxpiano, all I can say is that the LPF does in fact make a big improvement, at least to me. Plus, I've read that the frequency response of those old telephones peaked at around 1 kHz.
Last edited by lawman on 26 Jun 2023, 21:42, edited 1 time in total.
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