General Discussion of the Nord Stage (EX), Nord Stage 2 (EX), Nord Stage 3, and Nord Stage 4 Synths, FAQ, Troubleshooting etc.

Bluetooth MIDI connection

Postby Jazzclimber » 23 Nov 2022, 10:27

Hi guys! Rookie question - sorry about my ignorance! I’m trying to Bluetooth-connect my NS3 to (1) my IPad-pro & (2) to my stereo system (it has a bluetooth connection). What specific gadget(s) do I need to do this? I know from previous threads that https://www.cme-pro.com/widi-master/ is one way to go, - but which device(s) do I need? I play only at home, mostly with earphones, and since my playing has improved - time to practice with speakers. The stereo system works pretty well (Xeo30/Dynaudio), I use it with a cable now, their techsupport promise a latency of ~ 20ms with Bluetooth, I hope it’ll be tolerable for me. I need the IPad connection for piano courses, scores and future endeavors :-).
So to recap: what device(s) do I need to Bluetooth-connect NS3 to an IPad and a bluetooth-equipped amp, if I want both of them connected at the same time? Do I also need any drivers downloaded on my IPad? Sorry about my looong question, - any and all suggestions/advice much appreciated in advance!
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Bluetooth MIDI connection


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Re: Bluetooth MIDI connection

Postby Schorsch » 23 Nov 2022, 11:04

Hi,

these are two different topics for which I believe two different devices are necessary.

First one is connecting the Nord as a MIDI device to your iPad via Bluetooth, to control iPad synths from the keyboard of the Nord or control the Nord from the iPad. This can be done by devices like the mentioned WIDI master or the Yamaha MD-BT01, as long as the power provided by the Nord through it's 5-pin MIDI ports is sufficient to drive the wireless bluetooth MIDI devices. The one from Yamaha works, I was using it myself with my Nord Stage but I cannot comment on the WIDI Master.

The second topic is sending an audio signal from the Nord to your stereo system or bluetooth amp via Bluetooth. This cannot be done with a wireless MIDI device and also the USB port of the Nord does not support connecting such a device. You intead have to connect a bluetooth audio trabsmitter to the outputs of your Nord, either the headphone out or the normal outputs (keep in mind potential restrictions if you use specific audio routings on your Nord Stage 3). There are many devices on the market which allow this, like for example https://www.amazon.de/UGREEN-Bluetooth-Splitter-Fernseher-Kopfh%C3%B6rer/dp/B08TQSH636/ref=sr_1_4?keywords=bluetooth+sender+audio&qid=1669194003&sr=8-4&language=en_GB&currency=EUR or https://www.amazon.de/Bluetooth-Transmitter-Receiver-Hands-Free-Headphones-schwarz/dp/B0B5XSRGCK/ref=sr_1_10?__mk_de_DE=%C3%85M%C3%85%C5%BD%C3%95%C3%91&crid=2JBEMT3SL1XL9&keywords=bluetooth+sender+audio&qid=1669194425&sprefix=bluetooth+sender+audio,aps,127&sr=8-10&language=en_GB&currency=EUR which can be connected to the headphone output of the Nord and send the audio to your bluetooth audio receiver. I cannot comment on this and any other devices since I don't use them, but can imagine that there are massive quality differences between them, in terms of latency but also audio quality. Just do a search on "bluetooth audio transmitter" and you will find a lot to compare.
Last edited by Schorsch on 23 Nov 2022, 11:10, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Bluetooth MIDI connection

Postby FZiegler » 23 Nov 2022, 12:09

While BT MIDI has a low latency and is fine (little data to transmit), BT Audio usually has a lot - up to a few 100 ms.

So, 20 ms for BT Audio doesn't sound too bad - anyway, it would be too much for me. I feel that latencies of over 10~12 ms spoil my fun when playing (sound feels like chewing gum, always sticks behind starts feeling sticky). There are other ways to transmit audio wirelessly. I'm not sure about BT LowLatency, though.
Last edited by FZiegler on 23 Nov 2022, 13:33, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Bluetooth MIDI connection

Postby Schorsch » 23 Nov 2022, 12:47

FZiegler wrote:While BT MIDI has a low latency and is fine (little data to transmit), BT Audio usually has a lot - up to a few 100 ms.

So, 20 ms for BT Audio doesn't sound too bad - anyway, it would be too much for me. I feel that latencies of over 10~12 ms spoil my fun when playing (sound feels like chewing gum, always sticks behind). There are other ways to transmit audio wirelessly. I'm not sure about BT LowLatency, though.


Agree, I also don't like playing when the audio output is behind my play, and I am very sensitive about this, but it also seems to be a subjective feeling to some extent.

Here are some inforamtion about Bluetooth, including low latency: https://soundsightheadphones.com/guides/bluetooth-5-0-codecs-and-other-bluetooth-formats/

This talks about 32ms delay for the aptX low latency codec, and is considered as not being noticeable (quote: "We can no longer feel the delay of 32 ms":

=======================================================================================

Another Qualcomm codec is aptX Low Latency, which uses Bluetooth 5.0 technology for low latency audio.

The end-to-end delay provided by this technology when transmitting via Bluetooth is no more than 32 ms.

Delays for normal Bluetooth stereo can vary considerably and depend on the implementation and buffering of the system.

Nevertheless, they are normally larger and more noticeable. Specifically, using Bluetooth devices to connect wireless headphones to the TV was almost impossible.

In fact, +40 ms to -60 ms is the recommended delay for synchronizing audio and video in television broadcasts.

For concerts and studio feedback systems, the most feasible and technical solution should be between 20 and 30 ms.

Low-latency aptX comes close and offers the latest features, especially for the gaming community. We can no longer feel the 32 ms delay.


=======================================================================================
Last edited by Schorsch on 23 Nov 2022, 12:54, edited 4 times in total.
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Check this awesome website to visually view NS2/3 programs and re-create them on the other instrument!


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Re: Bluetooth MIDI connection

Postby Kaffimusic » 23 Nov 2022, 14:00

In short:
Do not try to play your keyboard-audio via BT. The latency is inacceptable. Try to play your keyboard via a BT headset and you know what we are talking about. Cable is the way to go.
There are analog systems that work via radio technology, that works. Same technology like wireless microphones work. But... really? You need one channel for each audio L/R. Audioquality? Dunno. Efforts? Cables to the devices, needs juice, so much stuff just for some meters of "wireless"? Meh, naaah. Cable...
However, you can play Midi via BT. The CME-thingys do a decent job and latency is acceptable, sometimes not noticable.
Last edited by Kaffimusic on 23 Nov 2022, 14:03, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Bluetooth MIDI connection

Postby FZiegler » 23 Nov 2022, 14:02

A delay of 12 ms is the same as having the source in a distance of 4 m (20 ms ~ 7 m). That's way less than what you encounter with a church organ in a church (the more as a wind driven organ will always have a natural delay in the response of the notes). But it may change the perception of your playing.

Edit: Those Germans don't seem to like BT.
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Re: Bluetooth MIDI connection

Postby Jazzclimber » 23 Nov 2022, 14:17

You guys are teriific, as always! Many thanks!! More research needed on my side, - onwards! :-)
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Re: Bluetooth MIDI connection

Postby FatPapa » 07 Feb 2023, 18:38

I use this https://www.sweetwater.com/c677--MIDI_I ... organicpla. Works perfectly with my iPad

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Re: Bluetooth MIDI connection

Postby FZiegler » 07 Feb 2023, 19:08

Other than expressed through the title, Jazzclimber wanted to connect to a speaker. Which isn't a matter of MIDI, whether BT or not.

But it's good again to hear that the Yamaha MD-BT01 works for you as far as a MIDI connection to your iPad is concerned.
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