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Re: Nord Amplification FAQ

Postby Mr_-G- » 15 Jul 2021, 23:46

8. When playing stereo through a mixer, you must pan the two channels fully in opposite directions.

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Re: Nord Amplification FAQ

Postby ajstan » 16 Jul 2021, 18:01

9. Speaker placement (relative to the listener and walls of a room) can significantly improve or worsen the sound.
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Re: Nord Amplification FAQ

Postby cphollis » 10 Oct 2021, 22:30

10. Every enclosed space has one or more natural resonance frequencies. That's what EQ should be for, not fixing your basic sound.
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Re: Nord Amplification FAQ

Postby cphollis » 25 Nov 2021, 13:10

11. Thinking built-in keyboard speakers can somehow get you through a gig
12. Using a keyboard designed for home use as a gigging keyboard -- it can sound awfully strange
13. Using home stereo components for a gig (yes, it's been done)
14. Counting on the sound guy to make you sound good
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Re: Nord Amplification FAQ

Postby cphollis » 10 Feb 2022, 07:17

Admins -- I rewrote the amplification FAQ, attempting to simplify and clarify. This would replace the one at the head of this thread.

Thanks!
----------------------------------
Revised Nord Amplification FAQ
Feb 2022

Amplification is a much-discussed topic on this forum, so in an effort to summarize consensus wisdom on various topics, I try to periodically publish this FAQ.

If you’re looking for a quick answer to “what should I get for my live gig?” the answer most likely will be (1) a pair of 8” self-powered PA units or similar (QSC K8.2s are popular, but so are others like the EV ZXA1), (2) a pair of poles to put them on, and (3) a small mixer . With those in hand, you should be good to go for many situations without too much further thought.

The rest of this FAQ goes into the subject a bit deeper.

The ultimate goal is to have your Nords sound as good as they do through a pair of nice headphones. If you are new to all of this, it’s great to have that reference sound in your head before you start listening to different amplification options. Everything you hear after that will be a compromise – but at least you’ll have an idea of how much.

While Nords don’t need a small, inexpensive mixer, they do benefit from one, as output line signals tend to be on the low side. It’s also useful to split your signal for both the PA system as well as your own monitoring.

Choices By Playing Situation

If you are playing at home, you’ll probably want near-field monitors. Nord certainly makes nice ones, but there are plenty of other options. They are called near-field as they only work well when the listener is very near, and thus aren’t suitable for audiences, etc. Conversely, people ask about essentially using PA gear in their home studios. Not advised, unless you’ve got a really big home studio, a tolerant spouse and neighbors, ear protection, etc.

Small, acoustic gigs benefit from a pleasant, crisp, moderate sound that disperses widely evenly through the room. Everyone gets nice ear candy, rather than in-your-face. The column speakers (actually, vertical line arrays) do quite well at this. Bose led the way, now there are many options and flavors – most good if you stay away from low-end offerings. Some versions are quite loud and powerful, but I have not found them an alternative to traditional point sources when it needs to get loud.

Rowdier, jammier groups need more volume and more punch, but also demand less subtly. If you’re like me, schlep matters. There are those that use the better keyboard amps in these situations, but I don’t think those work well in other situations as you’ll see. The “pair of self-powered PA” solution described above works well for two reasons: (1) they can get really loud and stay clean, and (2) you can aim the speakers in different directions so people can occasionally hear you over the drums, guitar, etc.

Once a decent PA comes into the picture, the landscape changes. Ideally, the PA does the heavy lifting, plus provides monitoring back to the band members. Most players want “more me” in the mix that they’re getting, simply to better hear what they’re doing. Sound people will only do so much for you, so often you are better served by meeting your own audio needs.

One approach is to simply add some personal stage monitoring to the mix. For example, most self-powered PA units (as above) have two inputs, one of which can take the band mix from the PA, and then adjust the mix with your keys to taste. Or use a small mixer. This will sound better than having some cheapo stage monitor blaring at you for three hours.

At some point, you will wonder “why am I bringing all this amplification to a gig when the FOH is doing all the work?” and then you start looking at IEMs. Most people who invest in learning to use them enjoy them greatly, and never look back. There is a preference for the three-driver ambient model from Westpro (you can hear around you), but there is plenty of opportunity to spend more and get more.

To use IEMs effectively, you need TWO small mixers or similar. One mixer to split your keys signal: one signal set to the PA, one signal set for you. And a second mixer that takes your split keys signal, adds it back into the FOH band mix, and puts that in your IEMs. This turns out to be a very pleasant setup – again, in the presence of a decent PA and someone who knows how to run it. It never hurts to have a pair of PA speakers in the car, just in case you show up and it isn’t quite what you expected.

Subs, Subs, Subs

This topic doesn’t come up often when you’re playing through a PA with multiple 18” subs, but it does come up other times. For the most part, size matters – and subs get pretty big and heavy pretty quick. But boy are they fun.

Many folks compromise around a 12” form factor, and then spend money as appropriate. For example, I have a cheapo Behringer 12” I use with the CPS V3 for jammy, loud gigs as above, but 500 “marketing watts” will only get you so far. I also have a RCF TT+ 12” sub that speaks with considerable authority when needed, outperforming some larger subs. The first I can carry, the second I need help with.

Quick note: because of technology advances, you can get more usable bass out of smaller speakers than was possible a few years ago. E.g. an 8” can do a bit more than an old 10”, a 10” can do a bit more than an old 12”, and so on. And some of these newer smaller subs with racetrack drivers (derived from phone and laptop speaker tech) can really surprise you.

The High End

Jazz piano players and solo acoustic players demand the best in sound reproduction for their gigs. There is a strong consensus around the RCF TT08a II as near-ideal for this purpose. I can’t argue with them – they sound divine. I went a bit nuts on a pair of FA12ac units a while back – same incredible sound quality, just more of it – and much more impractical due to size.

Wanna go nuts? Start looking at PA gear. As an example, the Bose F1 is a great top+bottom system for clubs and modest outdoor events. It also makes an impressive keyboard amplification system. Trust me on this – you can live your Keith Emerson or Jon Lord dream this way if you like.

But it’s not practical in the least. Even if you were willing to haul all that stuff and set it up, no one will let you turn it up for very long. At least, that’s what I’ve discovered ….

Busking

You’re on your own here, as I’ve never done it, and I probably wouldn’t use a Nord if I did. Following the discussion, there seem to be two camps: self-contained battery PA units, and using an external battery back to power modern PA gear. As I’m playing a small outdoor ceremony soon, I’ll be going with a modest battery pack with about 6 hours of forecasted capacity. I might think differently if I did it all the time.

The concern here is – how loud, how much bass, how long are you playing for? The portable units tend to be weak on bass, as it affects overall size and battery, e.g. there are few if any portable self-contained rigs with decent bass it seems, or they don’t last long. With an external battery rig, you can scale the power for the situation. I’m leaving the sub at home, though.

Special Situations

When performing acoustic music, there’s often a desire to have the piano (e.g. Nord) sound more like a real piano would sound in the situation, for example, a piano on stage alongside a choir. PA systems don’t do this well, but the vertical column array speakers mentioned above do quite well.

Organ players who like to kick bass (or synth bass players) won’t be happy with 8” units by themselves, they’ll want either larger 12” units, or (preferred) a small sub – see below.

Some folks like the gritty sound of distortion and count on their amplification to provide it. Using and managing distortion sounds is easier (and often sounds better) when it’s done with external effects vs. internal amp distortion.

There are “stereo” amps: Motion Sound, CPS V3, etc. Opinion is divided on them. The better MS units sound great, but are large, for example. The CPS V3 is small, but has other limitations. I use these in special situations, and don’t consider them great general purpose solutions. If you use an amp, use a stand to get it off the ground. And if you’re tempted to use a guitar amp, make sure that’s really what you want to hear all night.

Floor monitors are sometimes a necessary evil, as they will produce excess bass unless equalized. Yorkville makes some dandy short poles that position your speakers behind your shoulders at the optimum height. I think every gigging keyboard player should have a pair in their stash – that’s where I try to put floor monitors when I’m given them.

Flexibility

If you’re like me, you like to play in a lot of different situations – from informal to big stage. That means multiple tools for the job. So – what should the arsenal look like?

It starts with something that looks like the rig we started with: a pair of self-powered PA units, poles, and a small mixer. The EV ZXA1s are popular as they are very light, moderately powerful and not expensive. People wanting a bit more tend to gravitate to the QSC K8.2s, but there are few bad choices in this category if you see a deal somewhere. Used is great, but not too used as the newer designs really do a better job than the much older stuff.

If you’d like to sound better in an acoustic setting, consider one of those vertical column speakers that have a small sub. Other than avoiding the Bose Compact and similar low-end, there are plenty of good choices. I use an older Bose L1 Model 1S with sub in these situations, and it always sounds great. You can sometimes find great deals on the older Bose stuff (e.g. Model II), and you may find yourself using this kind of system a lot vs. a pair of PA speakers.

If you’re regularly playing through a good PA with a good sound person, you’re ready for IEMs and two small mixers. I prefer ambients, others say to hang a mic nearby and add it to the mix. Nicer, custom-molded IEMs are definitely in my future as well, but even the modestly-priced retail units are quite impressive. I didn’t have any luck with the cheaper "chi-fi" stuff, but you never know. Not the sort of thing I’d buy used, though.

Finally, if it’s all about that bass and you have to bring your own, you’ll be better served by bringing a small sub instead of a pair of big 12” or 15” (!) speakers.

My final piece of advice? A lot of us spent a lot of time and money to figure out what works well, and what doesn’t. Most of us have concluded that while there are inexpensive ways to sound good (within limits), there are no cheap ways to do so. A great instrument through crappy amplification will always sound like a crappy instrument, and there’s no getting around that.

Enjoy!
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Re: Nord Amplification FAQ

Postby Corea » 14 Jan 2023, 00:35

cphollis wrote:Admins -- I rewrote the amplification FAQ, attempting to simplify and clarify. This would replace the one at the head of this thread.

Thanks!
----------------------------------

Text replaced because of readability - Original quoted text link




Hey there! Impressive thread! Found it via gearspace.
Do you prefer the sound of the QSC K 8.2 over the 10.2?
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Re: Nord Amplification FAQ

Postby FZiegler » 20 Feb 2023, 19:32

No answers yet. So I jump in even if I couldn't compare them one to the other. Just what I was pointed to.

Advantage K10.2:
- a little more going down the frequency range

Advantage K8.2:
- smaller, more handy
- wider coverage (105° instead of 90°)

Which is better for you?
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Re: Nord Amplification FAQ

Postby cphollis » 12 Apr 2023, 21:37

Stumbled over this old thread I created when I was very much focused on this topic. That was then, this is now. I'm much more focused on band sound these days!

What would I add now in 2023?

#1 -- If there is any sort of a PA available, seriously consider not buying *any* stage amplification. Pro-grade 5 driver IEMs are $50 on Amazon, even better 8 driver ones are a measly $140. You will get insanely better sound in your ears, every time, once you adapt. You will save money, your gear will be much lighter, you will preserve your hearing and you will enjoy the experience that much more. You will need the ability to take an incoming monitor signal, mix it with your keys, and put it in your ears without sending it back to the main mixer. Any small mixer will do this, there are other ways as well.

If you will be playing electric gigs where there is no PA, or vocals only through PA, you may be required to use stage amplification so others can hear you. You can still use the approach suggested above, but with a small modification. I will bring a modest stage amp (CPS SSv3 or QSC K.8 etc.), and then place a microphone in a listening position in front of the stage. I will use that microphone input as a monitor input so at least I get a rough sense of where I am in the mix. Other band members may give you strange looks.

#2 -- If you have a lot of audio inputs, consider a small band mixer for your keys. I had a rig with three stereo boards and a few other toys, so eight inputs total. I wanted a full channel strip for each: EQ, compression, and so on. I also wanted the same for my entire mix. That's either a complex rack of gear, or a compact digital mixer like the Behringer XR18. If the main mixer has a bad day, I actually have enough capacity to run the entire band through my keyboard mixer. One effect I find useful: a multipressor to even out perceived volumes in different frequency bands, which sounds better to my ears than typical EQs. As I move from board to board, sound to sound it helps to even things out nicely.

#3 -- Don't use bluetooth for audio except when streaming break music. There's some serious latency involved, and it won't be pleasant.
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Re: Nord Amplification FAQ

Postby Schorsch » 12 Apr 2023, 22:55

cphollis wrote:Pro-grade 5 driver IEMs are $50 on Amazon, even better 8 driver ones are a measly $140.


Hey Chuck,

which ones would you recommend?
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Re: Nord Amplification FAQ

Postby halfperfect » 10 Nov 2023, 19:36

Thanks having taken a lot of tome to summarize your thoughts on Nord amplification.
I should actually have read this before instead spending hours and days in the research of a solution for my new Nord Stage 4 (btw a dream came true since Nord Stage 2 already was my target, and it took 6-7 years to have the balls to spend 4.700€ for NS4, which I just use at home...).

Just wanted to share my experience:
Initial situation: Grand piano player (Schimmel), my older Roland RD7xx disappeared with my divorce 2 y ago, living in an apartment, wanted to play at night w/o disturbing neighbors.
1. Lot of research and doubt about the initial intention to purchase a Kawai MP11SE. But: I wanted something with perspective > Decision for Nord Stage 4.
2. Then lot of research on speakers OMG
3. Test play at local dealer, several Focal's, which sounded terrible for me, then directly going to some more expensive gear they had, for about 800€ per speaker, and it still sounded horrible.
3. Spent 16€ for a 6m chinch connector cable and connected to my Surround receiver (top end Yamaha with 100% DYNAUDIO speakers, which I bought second hand, probably 25y old). SOUND IS FROM ANOTHER GALAXY, absolutely outstanding. I love it.
4. The same on Headphones: Didn't like the 80-150€ € stuff in the shop, and just bought an extension cable for the short 1m cable of my BOSE QC2 noise cancelling headphone. WOOOOOW. What a sound.

Resume, and why I write this:
Just wanted to tell people with the same doubts which I had to first try to USE WHAT YOU HAVE. I took the risk to spend 26€ for cables, which eventually I would have discarded. and found they gave an excellent result.

Once I go for recording and some home studio setup, maybe I need some new thoughts though. But for now I am more than happy.
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