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C2 suitability for Traditional 1841 RC Church

Postby canal92 » 04 Jan 2012, 15:57

Hi everyone
I live in Cheshire, UK.
I am trying to help the local church sort their ancient sound reinforcement system.
They have another problem (that is to my mind) that their 1850 Church organ is very sick, Keys and Stops sticking, or broken, Manuals are not in tune, so limited music is available.
So with the cost savings that I have made over the very high Professional installers cost.
I was thinking maybe a substitute Keyboard and Amplifier system may be a way of solving this dilemma to the congregations pleasure.

I found the Nord C2 that as the pipe organ section may just fit the bill.
However, I would like to have a demo in the Church before getting up their hopes or at least to physically hear one rather than the Nord or YouTube videos.
Not one of the large Musical outlet, e.g. Damson's of Stockport, Manchester, Handley etc have a demo model in stock.

So from actual users, do you feel this would or could fit the bill?
As a non player, What accessories would we need other than the keyboard to find the actual cost?
The church does have a dedicated organ loft, it could be sited there to give the illusion the actual pipe organ is playing

Your help appreciated Thanks
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C2 suitability for Traditional 1841 RC Church


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Re: /suitability for Traditional 1841 RC Church

Postby Hanon_CTS » 04 Jan 2012, 17:02

canal92 wrote:So from actual users, do you feel this would or could fit the bill?
As a non player, What accessories would we need other than the keyboard to find the actual cost?

Hello canal92,
Welcome to the forums.
As an instrument, the Nord C2, or C2D certainly fill the bill to replace the church's failing pipe organ.
A traditional pipe organ is also a very large sound system as well.
In my mind, this will be the bigger obstacle to overcome.

I would stop looking for a replacement instrument (The C2/C2D fills the bill nicely) and concentrate on a sound system that will spread the sound around the worship hall properly, this could easily be 4 times the price of the instrument.

A proper sound system to replicate a pipe organ is usually not a DIY project.
You'll want to get professional help with this, as there are many variables of room acoustics to be accounted for.

Cheers, Hanon
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Re: C2 suitability for Traditional 1841 RC Church

Postby Mooser » 04 Jan 2012, 19:50

I think Hanon nails it: The sound system will have a huge effect on the overall impression the organ makes. Pick any of the pre-set pipe organ registrations, the numbered "programs" on the Nord, and you will find a lot of reverb applied. Remove the reverb (let's hear it for the way Nord combines programs with always active controls!) and listen. Not so good no more.
Generally, a pipe organ is set up, if possible, to reflect sound from several surfaces before it reaches the listener. A bigger part of the sound is reflected, rather than direct. This is the effect you would try to duplicate. It could very well involve front and rear speakers, and indirect speakers, several amps, or even additional sound processing stuff.
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Re: C2 suitability for Traditional 1841 RC Church

Postby Mooser » 04 Jan 2012, 19:54

If it was me, I would connect the Nord to two Leslie 3300's, and then convert the church over to a Gospel-Gregorian synthesis music. I guarantee full pews every Sunday with that approach.
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Re: C2 suitability for Traditional 1841 RC Church

Postby canal92 » 04 Jan 2012, 23:29

Well that’s a quick end to a thread, It’s strange I seem attract Forum sites where What I feel is run by normal thinking people who are knowledgeable at their given subject but find they think well outside the box at the loudest pure sound you can get, but not with their own funds. rather than what could work and then if funds are unlimited then what could be achieved
Toccata and Fugue in D and other requiem Masses will rarely if ever be play simple 6 or seven Catholic hymns and psalms on a Sunday it’s a very reverberant 1841 church we have just had it professionally reviewed
They simply want 6 hymns / psalms on the Sunday morning to a keyboard with pipe organ sounds rather than a 4 piece folk group, But I was wrong,
Yes a double Leslie would be nice, but is not cost effective neither is it a reason to change a traditional service that is appreciated by most a reason to change to gospel good as gospel is
Anyway thank you for your input
Would the Nord not be able to cope with a Good Couple of 200W PA speakers or The Roland KC500 or KC550 180Watt Keyboard amp
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Re: C2 suitability for Traditional 1841 RC Church

Postby Hanon_CTS » 05 Jan 2012, 02:56

canal92 wrote:Well that’s a quick end to a thread,

You obviously haven't read us much... this one is just getting started :D
Just wait, there'll be more..... much, much more :shock:
Cheers again, Hanon
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Re: C2 suitability for Traditional 1841 RC Church

Postby jgowen » 05 Jan 2012, 21:25

Thu 1/05/2012 1:59 pm. Hi. I have a post (right next to yours!) "More Pipe Swell Pedal?" where I complain about a minor problem with the Nord pipe organ simulation -- the swell volume control actually only controls the swell manual! A surprise, but hardly a significant problem in your quest.

Please go view http://owenlabs.org/rant4.htm#nord for my extensive and sometimes-disordered thoughts on the Nord pipe organ and, as it turned-out, the B3 simulation. Briefly, I think they're top drawer, and I don't think you can get anything near for the price -- which is about $5.3K, including Nord pedals, for me in the states -- at least in the pipe organ simulation area.

As noted somewhere there I equipped my unit with two Behringer "Truth" B1030As amplified "studio-style" monitor speakers for less than $230. I doubt that would be appropriate for your church -- the cardboard's exposed, if nothing else -- but they *are* relatively cheap. The "200W PA speakers" or the keyboard amp sounds likely to me -- but I'm ignorant. ... The Nord emits a pair of line-level signals which should run any of those, with perhaps some kind of mixer to get both stereo channels into mono; my guess is a major reason for the stereo is to enhance the reverb -- of which I am quite fond. But I don't have access to "a very reverberant 1841 church". You can download the Nord manual in pdf form somewhere....

-- good luck

j.g. owen * http://owenlabs.org/rant4.htm#nord
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Re: C2 suitability for Traditional 1841 RC Church

Postby jgowen » 06 Jan 2012, 02:05

Thu 1/05/2012 6:49 pm. I thought I should also note that *any* decent clonewheel/hammond keyboard would probably make a plausible church organ -- with reverb, and if you turn-off the vibrato. Your church has the reverb already, and many modern keyboards have a reverb effect anyway. If one uses a few drawbars appropriately, it can sound quite "churchy". But not with the throbbing vibrato.

It won't do a good full organ, although it's not *that* bad. Nothing of course compared to the Nord C2 pipe simulation. But presumably considerably cheaper. ... Of course you would also leave off the pedal keyboard, which is costly -- again, not essential for a "churchy" sound. And of course the second manual, likewise.

It hurts me just to think about it, but if money is short....

-- best wishes,

j.g. owen * http://owenlabs.org/rant4.htm#nord
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Re: C2 suitability for Traditional 1841 RC Church

Postby Mooser » 11 Jan 2012, 02:26

"Would the Nord not be able to cope with a Good Couple of 200W PA speakers"

Pipe organs emit sound and spread sound in a completely different way from sound from an amplifier or PA speaker. In a good pipe organ installation very little direct sound reaches the listener, and it's considered better if most of the sound reflects from at least two surfaces before it reaches the ear. Yes, the output from the Nord will very easily drive two 200watt powered speakers. And powered speakers are not expensive. But when they are loud enough to fill the chapel, you may end up with a mess, too loud and harsh near the speakers, and possibly a muddle elsewhere, with standing waves and nodes.
I'm with Hanon, you should consult a sound engineer who has experience in this type of thing. The systems I have seen for electronic church organs use multiple speaker installations, and possibly active sound processing to achieve an even sound dispersion and frequency balance along with reverberation control.
And don't disparage my suggestion for a Gospel-Gregorian synthesis. There have been at least half-a-dozen or so substantiated miracles in my area alone as a result of it.
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