Nord User Forum

I have a tricky problem. Here's my best shot at explaining it:

In some acts I'm in, I play both keyboards and guitar. In some songs I play both, usually playing all the keys parts with my left hand to keep the guitar pick ready in my right hand.

Both of my Nord Stage 3's (an HP76 and a compact 73) leak an electrical signal into the pickups of my guitar. If I place the guitar pickup within an inch of either Nord Stage 3, the electrical interference sound coming out of the guitar amp is almost as loud the guitar itself! None of my other keyboards (2 Kronos 88's, Moog XL, Roland RD2000, Legend B3, Mojo B3, Roland Gaia, Roli, 2 Muse Receptors, a few others) have that issue. The other keyboards in my studio emit ZERO electrical noise into the guitar pickups, even if I actually set a guitar on them.

Whether I use my Helix guitar processor or Marshall amp or Hughes & Kettner amp, any of my electric guitars (PRS, Strats, Les Paul), or whether I go with a wireless system or hard wired makes no difference whatsoever. The loud electrical interference is also present with all my bass guitars. None of my acoustic guitars with built in pickups have the issue (as I expected).

My studio was designed to be super quiet, and has almost zero electrical hum, even at high volume; except...for this strange issue.

Has anyone else come across this issue?

thx

Darryl

Hi Darryl,
This is a known issue. Here's a couple of (several) related threads:
https://www.norduserforum.com/nord-stage-forum-f3/ns2-power-supply-creating-lots-of-static-t7849.html
https://www.norduserforum.com/nord-electro-forum-f9/noise-what-s-a-guitarist-keyboardist-to-do-t12519.html
I believe your guitars are picking up AC-mains (60Hz for Canada) harmonics from the Nord's power supply.
I don't recall anyone fixing it despite various attempts at shielding.
One contributor suggested powering Nords from same outlet as the guitar amps and pedals.
Let us know if that works for you.
-pterm

Thx for the reply!

As you say this is caused by radio frequency interference generated by the mains switch-mode power supply module in the Nord.
The only way to fix this is to fit "humbucker" coils in the guitars. These have 2 cross-wound coils which reject interference from a distance but still pick up the close by signal from the strings. It can change the character of the guitar sound though so often not a solution - but explains why some guitars/basses are not affected.
Using the same power outlet will not make any difference unfortunately.

congoblue wrote:As you say this is caused by radio frequency interference generated by the mains switch-mode power supply module in the Nord.

I didn't say that exactly: The last time I looked (NS2 generation) the Nord power supplies were mains transformer-based not switch-mode. In the past, the problem was magnetic leakage from the transformer making it very difficult to shield. I wish Nord would move to a modern switch-mode supply... getting rid of the transformer hum, the magnetic leakage, and disassembling your Nord to change the input power voltage level.
As far as I can tell, the NS3 generation Nords still use the same or similar supply.

Not sure if this will help at all, I had some kind of similar issue and i found a couple resources that helped for my problem.

https://www.dosupply.com/tech/2017/01/23/what-is-electrical-noise-and-how-can-you-prevent-it/
https://www.analogictips.com/tips-electrical-noise-reduction-faq/

Hope that helps for anyone who's got an issue similar to this.

Switchmode power supplies (SMPS) can still have transformers... the presence or absence of a transformer does not mean the power supply is not switchmode.

However, SMPS's do generate high frequency noise from their switching operations - which is itself a form of RFI. They're not necessarily better (or worse) than a linear power supply (which is the other type), but they *can* generate more RFI since a linear supply doesn't generate really any beyond the mains frequency and a first or second harmonic for the rectification (with very little amounts of harmonics beyond that compared to an SMPS operating at a defacto 15+kHz and exhibiting subharmonics plus RF harmonics that are quite strong).

I believe Nord's use an SMPS that's transformer coupled for electrical isolation from the mains ground structure, but they don't appear to be any more shielded than the little cage they're in plus the shell of the keyboard, which isn't a full faraday cage. This is very typical even of other high quality manufacturers - they're no different in this regard, and the transformer can actually provide for a cleaner ground plane reference in the audio signal than a transformerless SMPS. My DSI appears to have a similar power supply arrangement.

darrylhebert wrote:In some acts I'm in, I play both keyboards and guitar. In some songs I play both, usually playing all the keys parts with my left hand to keep the guitar pick ready in my right hand.

Both of my Nord Stage 3's (an HP76 and a compact 73) leak an electrical signal into the pickups of my guitar. If I place the guitar pickup within an inch of either Nord Stage 3, the electrical interference sound coming out of the guitar amp is almost as loud the guitar itself! None of my other keyboards (2 Kronos 88's, Moog XL, Roland RD2000, Legend B3, Mojo B3, Roland Gaia, Roli, 2 Muse
Has anyone else come across this issue?

As others have said its not a new issue. I went through some testing quite a while back as I have dealt with it live. The field is not in a straight line so any shielding in between keyboard & guitar will not work. Humbuckers still had noise but reduced and only needed to be about 10-12" away from the front of the keyboard to be quiet. Single coils generally 3-4 feet. My Baritone guitar with active pickups is actually not that bad. But if I just hold my guitar cable unplugged near the Nord it will have significant noise!
I did find on some guitars or basses certain pickups were effected more than another. On some the bridge pickup was worse, some the neck pickup was. Also the hotter the pickup the more noise though curiously my Caparison guitar has very hot pickups and the bridge pickup is fairly quiet.

Only workarounds I found and have used all of these at some point:
1) if using only one pickup & have two volume controls, turn the unused pickup off and hit the selector switch when getting near/away from the keyboard. That was the easiest for me.
2) If you have a tone control, turn it down and the noise will get reduced to a hum. Some guitars its a tolerable level. Or additionally I used a noise gate with doing this & the gate wasn't "heard." I use Fractal Axe FX's for amps & pedals but its the same as a real noise gate pedal.
3) If using straplocks or absolutely sure your strap is firmly attached (I use rubber washers myself) flip your guitar to your back. That keeps the guitar either far enough away or maybe partly because my body is blocking a bit.

Its something I have had to deal with and really, really hate but for when I have to play both keyboard & guitar or bass its reality. And there are times where I have used a different keyboard for this reason. But as a whole am not ready to completely give up my Nord because of it. Hope one day either shielding or some replacement will be offered to fix this.

It's not a fault of the Nord. It's a problem with the stupid single coil unbalanced audio design of the guitar which is extremely vulnerable to interference. Humbuckers were invented (in 1934 no less) to fight this exact problem back then. Blaming the Nord for making electrical noise when your single-coil guitar is close to it is like blaming your car for sliding off the road when you're the one driving on slick ice and going too fast - this is a known problem with single coil pickups (and unbalanced cables - as @Phun Tunes notes - even when unplugged) and has been since their invention.

Sure, some keyboards out there emit less noise (from the keyboard), but many are MUCH noisier (or their external power supplies are), and in a live sound environment the keyboard is going to be the least of your concerns next to the fog machines, the amplifiers, the digital lighting controllers, and a host of other interference sources. Hell if I put my iPhone next to an unbalanced instrument cable I get interference.

All I'm saying is, it's definitely not unique to Nords, it's not a problem with the keyboard (there are standards on how much RFI/EMI can be emitted by a device and they fall well inside it), and you'll never see a fix for it from them since it's not their problem, really.

Use humbuckers or do what the pros do, keep the single coil guitars away from noisy electronics, keep your cables super short, and run them to a professional DI or wireless transducer within a foot or two of the guitar body. There's a reason they do that on stage, and it isn't just to be wireless.

Edit: Also who puts a guitar within inches of a keyboard... seriously, people. Learn a thing or two about EMI/RFI, please:

https://www.prosoundweb.com/topics/stud ... c_guitars/
http://www.tdpri.com/threads/the-60-hz- ... ve.276886/
https://www.reddit.com/r/Guitar/comment ... _problems/

The problem is the guitar... and has always been. It's part of the design.

23skidoo wrote:It's not a fault of the Nord. It's a problem with the stupid single coil unbalanced audio design of the guitar which is extremely vulnerable to interference. Humbuckers were invented (in 1934 no less) to fight this exact problem back then. Blaming

All I'm saying is, it's definitely not unique to Nords, it's not a problem with the keyboard (there are standards on how much RFI/EMI can be emitted by a device and they fall well inside it), and you'll never see a fix for it from them since it's not their problem, really.

Use humbuckers or do what the pros do, keep the single coil guitars away from noisy electronics, keep your cables super short, and run them to a professional DI or wireless transducer within a foot or two of the guitar body. There's a reason they do that on stage, Edit: Also who puts a guitar within inches of a keyboard... seriously, people. Learn a thing or two about EMI/RFI, please:

The problem is the guitar... and has always been. It's part of the design.

Evidently you didn't read my post in its entirety.
The problem is not limited to single-coil pickups. Humbuckers are susceptible as well. That is not a solution. And short cables do not help. I usually use wireless on stage and it does not help at all.
And there are times where some of us have to play both instruments during a song. For instance one song I played on tour I played keyboard during the intro and immediately (no rest notes!) started on my bass. It was not possible to have my bass on a stand or even for someone to hand it to me. So I must have the bass within inches of the keyboard. Only solutions were as I gave in my previous post. Have played many songs where I have to switch immediately between instruments immediately.
ANd BTW. I am a Pro. People pay me to play so this is exactly "what the pros do!"
Again as I mentioned in my post, I have used other keyboards without this problem at all. So that does make it a Nord issue. Not just a guitar issue.