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Question about sharing sampled keyboards

Postby JeffLearman » 28 Apr 2023, 22:56

The forum rules, forum_rules.php, section 6(III) says
Hardware Keyboards, Synths or ROMplers and natural instruments are typically allowed to be resampled and freely distributed


I'm pretty sure that this is incorrect. Any recording (e.g., sample) is implicitly copyrighted in the US and most other countries. Any re-recording of those recordings (e.g., by sampling a digital piano) is subject to the original copyright. I seriously doubt that it's "typically allowed" to sample a digital piano and distribute the samples.

Instruments that are not based on samples are not covered by copyright protection. So, most analog hardware keyboards and synths (even digital synths when not using samples), are fine to sample and distribute, as are natural instruments or electromechanical instruments.

Can anyone back up the Rules statement? Is it guesswork or is it based on solid legal advice?

IANAL, but my father was an intellectual properties attorney and we'd discussed these issues, and I've studied material at copyright.us.gov . This is also often discussed among sound designers and the general agreement is that it's risky to distribute samples of instruments that are covered by copyrights.

It sure would be nice if I could freely distribute my samples of the Yamaha S90ES piano, Ensoniq MR76 piano, and a number of Yamaha CP4 pianos and epianos. But I think I would be violating Yamaha's copyrights. (I have these samples so that I can use them in my DAW, which is way more convenient than having to always use the hardware keyboard.)
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Question about sharing sampled keyboards


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Re: Question about sharing sampled keyboards

Postby MarkJames » 28 Apr 2023, 23:11

There is a difference between samples and resamples though?
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Re: Question about sharing sampled keyboards

Postby maxpiano » 29 Apr 2023, 07:57

JeffLearman wrote:The forum rules, forum_rules.php, section 6(III) says
Hardware Keyboards, Synths or ROMplers and natural instruments are typically allowed to be resampled and freely distributed


I'm pretty sure that this is incorrect. Any recording (e.g., sample) is implicitly copyrighted in the US and most other countries. Any re-recording of those recordings (e.g., by sampling a digital piano) is subject to the original copyright. I seriously doubt that it's "typically allowed" to sample a digital piano and distribute the samples.

Instruments that are not based on samples are not covered by copyright protection. So, most analog hardware keyboards and synths (even digital synths when not using samples), are fine to sample and distribute, as are natural instruments or electromechanical instruments.

Can anyone back up the Rules statement? Is it guesswork or is it based on solid legal advice?

IANAL, but my father was an intellectual properties attorney and we'd discussed these issues, and I've studied material at copyright.us.gov . This is also often discussed among sound designers and the general agreement is that it's risky to distribute samples of instruments that are covered by copyrights.

It sure would be nice if I could freely distribute my samples of the Yamaha S90ES piano, Ensoniq MR76 piano, and a number of Yamaha CP4 pianos and epianos. But I think I would be violating Yamaha's copyrights. (I have these samples so that I can use them in my DAW, which is way more convenient than having to always use the hardware keyboard.)


From Yamaha S90ES manual https://usa.yamaha.com/files/download/o ... es_en1.pdf page 6:

This product incorporates and bundles computer programs and contents in which Yamaha owns copyrights or with respect to which it has license to use others’ copyrights. Such copyrighted materials include, without limitation, all computer software, style files, MIDI files, WAVE data, musical scores and sound recordings. Any unauthorized use of such programs and contents outside of personal use is not permitted under relevant laws. Any violation of copyright has legal consequences. DON’T MAKE, DISTRIBUTE OR USE ILLEGAL COPIES.

So I agree with you, that statement is incorrect or partial i.e. in case of ROMplers it should suggest to check each instrument's manual and copyright statements.
Last edited by maxpiano on 29 Apr 2023, 08:00, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Question about sharing sampled keyboards

Postby Rusty Mike » 29 Apr 2023, 13:34

maxpiano wrote:
From Yamaha S90ES manual https://usa.yamaha.com/files/download/o ... es_en1.pdf page 6:

This product incorporates and bundles computer programs and contents in which Yamaha owns copyrights or with respect to which it has license to use others’ copyrights. Such copyrighted materials include, without limitation, all computer software, style files, MIDI files, WAVE data, musical scores and sound recordings. Any unauthorized use of such programs and contents outside of personal use is not permitted under relevant laws. Any violation of copyright has legal consequences. DON’T MAKE, DISTRIBUTE OR USE ILLEGAL COPIES.

So I agree with you, that statement is incorrect or partial i.e. in case of ROMplers it should suggest to check each instrument's manual and copyright statements.


It may be splitting hairs, but I would interpret wave data as the code to create the sound and not the audio of sound itself. Although I’m not sure what is meant by “sound recordings” in that statement.
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Re: Question about sharing sampled keyboards

Postby maxpiano » 29 Apr 2023, 14:00

Wave data are the ROM waveforms, I would have no doubt about that, software is mentioned separately. What instead is in fact questionable is that, since the copyright applies only to "Wave Data", that means you cannot copy the raw waveforms data, but you may still be entitled to sample a Patch that uses that wave data as starting point, because the final (sound) product is different ...
Last edited by maxpiano on 01 May 2023, 18:59, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Question about sharing sampled keyboards

Postby cphollis » 01 May 2023, 17:27

Sorry, you can't copyright a sound, including the sound of an instrument. Imagine if royalties had to be paid on guitar sounds, drum sounds, harmonica sounds, etc. for every recording. Agree with above, the bit patterns that create the sounds are software, and thus can carry a copyright. Trademarks are a different story.
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Re: Question about sharing sampled keyboards

Postby JeffLearman » 04 May 2023, 20:11

cphollis wrote:Sorry, you can't copyright a sound, including the sound of an instrument. Imagine if royalties had to be paid on guitar sounds, drum sounds, harmonica sounds, etc. for every recording. Agree with above, the bit patterns that create the sounds are software, and thus can carry a copyright. Trademarks are a different story.


Right, you can't copyright "a sound", but you can copyright "a recording." Once a recording is copyrighted, you can't use someone else's copyrighted recordings mixed in with other stuff and forget the original copyright. (Much to the dismay of people who use samples in music.) There is a limit: if you change the recording enough so that it dramatically changes the character, you can escape copyright claims. But I doubt that embedding re-recorded piano note samples to make a copy digital instrument would pass that test.

Clearly, music instrument manufacturers claim that you can't do this. But as I mentioned above, they often make claims that aren't legally supportable (just like, back in the old days, we used to sign leases that had unenforceable clauses.)

But in this case, I think that Yamaha is on good legal footing, and that if I sampled a digital piano and distributed the samples, they'd have a valid claim against me.

The protection that sampled instruments get from copyright laws like the US's DCMA is an accidental legal benefit. The laws weren't intended to protect instrument manufacturers. For example, there's nothing in there to prevent you from sampling your real grand piano (or your Harley Davidson motorcycle) and using that to make a software instrument. What it does cover is "sound recordings" which is exactly what samples are. So, DP manufacturers are covered, mostly as an unintended consequence.

A fuzzier area is modeled instruments. My suspicion is that any company's legal team and marketing team would have very different ideas on whether an instrument was sampled or modeled. I bet if someone created a software piano based on what is marketed as a "modeled piano", the legal team would say, "Yeah, but it's sampled too." But if it's demonstrable that the instrument truly is modeled and not based on samples with modeled "extras", then copyrights would not provide any protection.
Last edited by JeffLearman on 04 May 2023, 20:27, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Question about sharing sampled keyboards

Postby JeffLearman » 04 May 2023, 20:19

Copyright law has some funny wrinkles. For example, let's say you write a song and either jot down notation for it, or make a quick recording on your phone. Your song is now copyrighted, automatically. If someone copies it, you can sue.

Now say you make up a song and play it in public but don't ever write it down or record it, and someone else comes along and copies your song. What's your legal status? Zippo. You have no copyright. To get a copyright, a work of an author or artist has to be rendered in a "fixed medium" (and a digital recording on any kind of file system qualifies.)

So, the sounds "in the air" aren't copyrighted per se. But the fixed medium is, and that copyright applies to other people's "in the air" copies.
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Re: Question about sharing sampled keyboards

Postby JeffLearman » 04 May 2023, 20:26

Rusty Mike wrote:It may be splitting hairs, but I would interpret wave data as the code to create the sound and not the audio of sound itself. Although I’m not sure what is meant by “sound recordings” in that statement.

"Wave data" is "sound recorded in a fixed medium" and is covered by copyright. "Sound recordings" is a bit odd, since it seems synonymous with "wave data" -- unless they're trying to protect modeled sounds as "wave data" and if so, they're on pretty shaky ground. I suspect they're just covering their bases over the interpretation of "wave data."

The only protections they have are copyrights, trademarks, and patents. Patents don't apply here. And while Harley Davidson does have trademark coverage for the sound of a Harley (which personally I find dubious but my opinion doesn't matter), instrument makers can't claim the sounds of their instruments as trademarks.
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