Tool for Converting Stage Programs to Stage 4 Format

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WannitBBBad
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Re: Tool for Converting Stage Programs to Stage 4 Format

Post by WannitBBBad »

Nord33 wrote:Seems like a pretty nice idea. There is probably no need for A&B from S3 to different layer scenes on S4, but only A&B from S3 to A&B engines on S4 as it has those. Synth C would be the only one "unassigned", but as you said, that already does half of the work if not more.
Thanks. As I sometimes create programs where I can toggle between a Panel A setup and a Panel B setup, the move from one panel to the next might be possible with a morph across a single Layer Scene, but some might prefer the capability to start with each Panel being assigned a Layer Scene to switch back and forth.
florence wrote:yes great idea.

[dream=ON]
Could even be included in the Nord Sound Manager, when connected to NS4, import program/bundle from NS3 and magic it convert it to NS4...
[dream=OFF]

now wondering if a 100% conversion will be possible. From NS2 to NS3 the Synth section was already different, example FM quite impossible to translate...
Designing the tool to import the program bundle is a great idea. I think conversion of the synth settings of basic sounds like a sawtooth vintage synth and samples barely tweaked (mellotron samples) could be nearly identical, however anything beyond 1:1 matches would just be ballpark settings of the OSC, while AMP and ENV filters, LFO, and Effects could be easily mapped IMO.
maxpiano wrote:
anotherscott wrote:
florence wrote:yes right, would be starting point only. But question is will Nord put time and resource for such feature? Was never the case in the past...
Yeah, they've never done it before, even when the fundamental architecture of the board was much more similar (i.e. two slots of sounds, each with a piano, an organ, and a synth), so I doubt they'd do it now, even though the effort people have put it their old patches is something that stops people from upgrading, and even something "in the ballpark" would be a great time-saver. Maybe Nord feels that the resources required (e.g. having to hire another programmer to do it) would cost them more than the incremental sales they would get, especially if they know that the final result would indeed be something only very roughly in the ballpark, and so they also know they would get a lot of complaints about what a bad job it did, further reducing the potential upside of those increased sales.
I share the same view with @anotherscott and let's remember that also for other brands like Yamaha (and maybe also Korg) conversion tools were initially an independent external SW developer initiative; it would be enough if Nord would make the structure of their Program files and/or Sysex public (what @florence had to reverse engineer by himself instead, while other companies often include that in the MIDI Implementation specs) then the responsibility of the conversion tool would be left on the potential developer, even if with some risk for the brand also in this case (in fact also for the NS2/3 Program Viewer Clavia asked @florence to put a disclaimer statement on the File Viewer for Nord Stage website)
I share the same concerns regarding commitment, though I think increased sales would well offset the cost. Sharing the structure of their program files could drive development of many tools by third parties, however that would add another cost element to the NS4 purchase decision if not "free". Though I would definitely consider purchasing a tool to save me hours of programming time, that tool would have to be very good, whereas offering a tool for free also allows the opportunity to say "don't expect the conversion to be perfect" (however, for many programs focused on piano and/or organ, they could be). A synth conversion presetting my AMP and ENV (both ADR), LFO, and Effects are straightforward; estimating the OSC is where Nord just needs to get us in the ballpark.
florence wrote:agree... now 3rd party software would be a simple option if really ALL parameters are documented Sysex... Reverse eng file format is not really sustainable at long term, even if I spent really lot of time for the previous iteration. And would not be ready when users really need it, aka in the short coming months... So only Nord can provide something, and could be very, very simple for them...
I agree. I just want something that's going to just get me close, though many converted programs could be almost identical.
cookie wrote:I'm very pessimistic.
I've seen Nord's feedback and "help" on the Nord Stage File Viewer program. That could have been a great opportunity to come up with new features in NSM or other tools, but unfortunately, the small company doesn't bother with that.
Fred
Yes, adding the functionality to NSM to output the settings of a program, or even a spreadsheet of the settings of all programs, would be excellent. I think there's real value to Nord in easing the transition to the NS4 - maybe developing the tool and handing it over to the public with documented Sysex could benefit them in sales while allowing them to also walk away from future commitment.

I'm a Nord fan. I can be critical at times, but I haven't worked with a better keyboard for covering everything I do. I recognize it's not a good business model to offer "gifts" that turn into future obligations, so perhaps we can simply ask that Nord consider putting the time into a tool that can be handed off to its loyal customers and benefit them as well :)
Last edited by WannitBBBad on 20 Feb 2023, 16:08, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Tool for Converting Stage Programs to Stage 4 Format

Post by FZiegler »

The only thing I can do about that question is considering my own programs, even if I'm not yet willing to leave my NS3C behind.

I first thought that having basic piano and organ presets converted on the fly would help saving a lot of time in recreating the existing NS3 programs on a NS4. I was sceptical about synth presets, but indeed, there might be a way to attribute used samples (even if their number will be different on the NS4 - no idea if they are referred to by name). But in fact, there are so many points to consider as well, namely active and inactive sounds/engines/panels, morphs or MIDI settings (DualKB etc.) that just converting a basic piano sound with EQ, FX and reverb/drive will mostly not result in a usable entity: Even my piano sounds don't consist of just a piano engine any more - they are rather piano + synth or 2x piano. So I'm not that convinced any more about the amount of help that would come from getting automatic basic presets from NS3 programs.

Maybe the experience of 2 or 3 others would be helpful to consider the idea a bit further.

It may get complicated. At the moment, I don't think trying to convert a full program would be worth the effort at all - but I would love to be proven wrong.
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Re: Tool for Converting Stage Programs to Stage 4 Format

Post by WannitBBBad »

Very complicated, but not insurmountable to a seasoned Nord programmer. All the details you mentioned (MW, Control Pedal, and Aftertouch morphs especially) just increase the value of having the tool IMO. Every program I create has one or more morphs, even if it is to simply adjust levels. I really dread having to go through all of that again for over a hundred programs.

Thinking of it from the perspective of this Forum - every posted Stage 3 program for example could be converted to a Stage 4 program, so the benefits go much further than just what current owners would realize.
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Re: Tool for Converting Stage Programs to Stage 4 Format

Post by DJKeys »

I guess I just like programming sounds. When I got my Stage 3, I went through the 100 or so custom programs in my NS2 side by side and had them done in a few days. Same thing going from my A1 to the Wave 2. The synths that Nord designs have always allowed me to get the sounds I need very quickly, plus I enjoy it!

I once had a Yamaha CP-70 Electric Grand that I was selling to lighten my load when my cover band stopped touring. I bought a DX-7 and literally spent hours and days programming the DX to sound like the CP-70. I got it so close that my band mates could not believe it. I wish I still had that cartridge!

-dj
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Re: Tool for Converting Stage Programs to Stage 4 Format

Post by WannitBBBad »

DJKeys wrote:I guess I just like programming sounds...
-dj
Yes, I do as well, you learn a lot in the process. Eliminating the rudimentary setup of the piano/organ and letting me focus on the synth is the major benefit to me, there would still be plenty of that.
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Re: Tool for Converting Stage Programs to Stage 4 Format

Post by darrylhebert »

I'm in the same boat. Lots of custom patches for different shows. The lack of a conversion tool will likely prevent me from upgrading to the 4. Fingers crossed...
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Re: Tool for Converting Stage Programs to Stage 4 Format

Post by gordon »

When I went from NS2 to NS3 I wrote a tool to dump out the NS2 settings (and contributed the best parts of that to florence and others to support their great tool).
It was a labor of love and a lot of work, and a 'fun' project while I luckily had overlap of NS2 and NS3 for quite a few months.
When my NS4 arrives I'll dump out my NS3 programs - but I wont be looking to rebuild them - first I want to make the most of the "presets" by looking across all my programs for 'common' or 'near-common' instruments. and put those in presets.
The song by song programs are then mostly just combos of favorite presets plus some song-specific special sauce.
That outcome will be much better than a straight program-to-program translator that ignores the benefit of presets.
Plus - I'll get to learn the board as I go.
So although I am a fan of 'automation' I will enjoy the semi-manual approach.

Florence - one of the modes in my original PERL version of the NS2 file viewer that I contributed, was to list out all programs that shared the same piano, or synth, and I started to look at adding some fuzzy selection there (because two essentially identical programs may have a slight arbitrary change eg in level or reverb before hitting 'save').. That would be a useful addition to your NS3 viewer, to encourage use of NS4 'presets'. Let me know if you don't get what I mean..
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Re: Tool for Converting Stage Programs to Stage 4 Format

Post by cookie »

Interesting idea to show programs with the same piano/synth.

I suggested Christian (Florence) to have a way of identifying programs that share the exact same parameters (therefore 100% duplicates, for cleanup).
Also interested in showing the programs that only had transposition value difference (also for cleanup, as I play in different bands with same songs but different tone AND I'm a very lazy guy).

Don't know if this is relevant, nor hard to implement.
I know I could do some Excel compare macros to have the same result, lacking time !

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Re: Tool for Converting Stage Programs to Stage 4 Format

Post by florence »

great idea, but lack of time to work on it for now....

The viewer already includes full CSV export of all parameters on program/bundle/backup on NS2 and NS3. That means all parameters are available as simple text file.

Any compare tool, or Excel can be used to define custom filters. Each user will have a different use case... I have not yet jump in this area, but definitely something that could be done, who knows.
Last edited by florence on 09 Mar 2023, 13:14, edited 1 time in total.
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My free online tool to view Nord Stage programs https://chris55.github.io/ns3-program-viewer
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Re: Tool for Converting Stage Programs to Stage 4 Format

Post by cookie »

Indeed Christian : as users may (and I believe) have different needs, having this full export is a great feature to extract data to be analysed !
And thanks again for your "killer" application AND support behind the scene !

Fred
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