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Settings on QSC 10.2 with Stage 3

Postby Bizscott » 27 Mar 2020, 03:55

Hi,
I have a Nord Stage 3 and a single QSC K10.2 speaker. I have tried it with the various presets (just playing at home)-from the default to the live and stage monitor preset, and I can't seem to find a decent sound. It is clear, but is quite tinny, and lacks any sort of warmth.

After some messing around I began playing with headphones (in stereo) and the keyboard sounds really good, so I know that the keyboard isn't the issue. This issue is with the piano sounds predominantly when played in a mono speaker.

Does anyone have this combination? Before I play with the individual eq settings (as I fear this will involve endless permutations and combinations), I thought I would see if anyone had similar issues and may have found some sort of resolution.
Thanks,
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Settings on QSC 10.2 with Stage 3


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Re: Settings on QSC 10.2 with Stage 3

Postby cgrafx » 27 Mar 2020, 06:33

A single 10 inch speaker is not going to give you the same experience you get through a pair of headphones.

1. its mono.
2. it doesn't have the low-end response, so will always be lacking the bottom end of the spectrum.

The low-end spectrum of the speaker is pretty limited: Frequency Response (-6 dB) 56 Hz - 20 kHz. extrapolating to 0db (flat curve) it probably doesn't go much below 65hz before it starts to lose low end.

Image

Both of these limitations are going to impact the sound you hear, particularly the piano sounds (which are not very forgiving)

Now, for things you can do that might help.

1. Move the speaker away from you to allow the bass frequencies time to develop.

As a reference, a 50hz tone has a 22.51ft wavelength, meaning it needs quite a bit of distance to fully develop (The lower the frequency the longer the wavelength). If your in a small room, you could try turning the speaker away from you and bounce the sound off of a wall to increase the distance of the sound waves. (This will negatively impact the high-frequency tones, but that may be okay since you say it currently sounds tinny.)

2. I would try the following speaker settings
- STAGE MONITOR 2
- STUDIO MON

Also make sure the speaker is configured for NO SUB.
Last edited by cgrafx on 27 Mar 2020, 06:47, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Settings on QSC 10.2 with Stage 3

Postby LeftyBass68 » 27 Mar 2020, 11:41

I am surprised to hear the QSC 10" powered speaker has no bass response,good advice to move it away to achieve more,kind of defeating the purpose?
I sum both L+R outs 1&2 to the dual mono inputs of a Yorkville NX55P 12" box that has lots of bass and not too bad in mono with a 'sum' of both.
When we get back gigging I'm trying a pair of Meyer UPM-1P's ( 2X5"+1"HF),the 2 little 5" coupled in a 2 1/2 way config really clear up the mids.
Trade off is needing a sub if low freq is required,have 3 types of Yorkville,smallest is a front load 12" YSS1.
The XLR outs of a Radial Key Largo mixer into the YSS1 sub and daisy out to the Meyers sounds great! Tidy and liftable,21 pounds each,375W RMS class AB,not the harsher class D.
Capable of +24DB the Radial accepts 3 line level pairs and USB along with an EX pedal loop and FX loop.A Stage 3 piano,organs,synths,even drums and vocals,sound great!
Sending a submix to a larger mixer from a digital 'stage box' is easy.

The Yorkville NX55P paired up are a pretty good economical keys audio system though IMO! Hefty though,totally reliable in my experience,harsh mids to my ears?
I wanted to try something smaller,and pleasantly surprised by 2X5"and a tweeter in the Meyers.Glad now I didn't get the Yamaha or QSC,these are even lighter!

Try to sum those L+R outputs somehow into the mono input? The Radial J48 DI sums and sends out a great mono piano!Not cheap,either was the Nord.
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Re: Settings on QSC 10.2 with Stage 3

Postby RichardG » 27 Mar 2020, 11:45

I have 1 (one) K10 but that seems comparable enough.
What cgrafx said is true wrt long waves.
But I do have enough low for the short listening range with this, you can boost the bass IIRC.

I accept that a (wedge-)monitor is mainly to hear what you're doing and not to hear the fine nuances of a piano, but that's my perspective.
If you really want to hear that then an IEM is the way to go although in my experience the lows' are difficult to achieve there as well.

If I crank up the bass then my personal sound is fairly rich but the rest of the band goes berzerk because all they hear is a massive bass-sound (due to the effect cgrafx described).
These QSC's do live up to their RMS !

So it's difficult to get the right balance, moving the monitor away does help tho'.

As said in another thread in hindsight I've should have gone with 2 K8s, accept that the lowest frequencies don't come through but would have a stereo sound while still being schleppable ;)
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Re: Settings on QSC 10.2 with Stage 3

Postby Bizscott » 27 Mar 2020, 14:40

Cgrafx, Lefty and Richars, Thanks for your replies. I actually trued the Yorktown when demoing the piano but preferred the QSC. I think the big issue is mono. As mentioned the sound is clear, including the bass...it is just not full sounding...
Lefty- are you saying you are using both outputs from the keyboard to the same speaker? I wondered about that.
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Re: Settings on QSC 10.2 with Stage 3

Postby LeftyBass68 » 27 Mar 2020, 19:05

Use both outputs to 'sum' at the speaker/amp input!The Radial J48 DI will do that(combine L+R),allowing a single XLR cable to your powered speaker!Jensen transformer just like the KeyLargo.
Less expensive solution could be as simple as a passive 4X1 resistor 'mixer'.These ancient 'DOD' units are stompbox style,have high quality 1% resistors and pots.
I run three Nord 'organs' and a Hammond A100 on a submix with one,organ is after all,mono.

Yorkville NX55P has two 1/4" inputs,don't know about the QSC.I know the newer Yorkville Parasource and Paraline have only one 1/4" input.
Which ended up being good for Meyer,and not so good for Yorkville.
That's 2K they could have had by keeping both 1/4" inputs,so I waited for something else; and Meyer's from a theater refit became available.
I run both 1/4" outputs of a Radial Kay Largo to both 1/4" NX55P inputs(one cab),many synth and pianos need summing to mono on Nord.
Activating the 'mono' button on them doesn't provide the same experience.Most of us just 'mix' our way around this issue.
Don't really mind though,having a choice of final destination of each output allows more flexibility.

I predict the Stage 4 will have floating split points,FX pre/post chaining,two synths per panel,external FX loop.
Yamaha will already have released the YC76 and 88....the YC61 will soon arrive,game on!
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Re: Settings on QSC 10.2 with Stage 3

Postby Rusty Mike » 27 Mar 2020, 19:14

Bizscott wrote:... both outputs from the keyboard to the same speaker? I wondered about that.


This is what I do. I have a pair of K8.2 speakers but usually take only one out. I run both outputs from my Stage or Electro into the A and B inputs. I know others on this forum are not fond of this, but it works just fine for me.You obviously could not get stereo effects like Pan that way, but it is what it is.

I have also adjusted the EQ on the K's to lower the treble. I cannot recall the exact value right now, but attenuating the top end helps to calm it down, particularly when it gets loud.

Even with the 8's, I've never had a problem with bottom end. Last big band rehearsal, our bass player couldn't make it. I carried the bass for the big band with no issues at all. Even got compliments on it!
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Re: Settings on QSC 10.2 with Stage 3

Postby cgrafx » 27 Mar 2020, 19:26

LeftyBass68 wrote:I am surprised to hear the QSC 10" powered speaker has no bass response,good advice to move it away to achieve more,kind of defeating the purpose?


Its not that they have no bass response, its just a question of where they start to fall off. In this case around C2 on a piano. The distance thing is just physics.

There are real reasons people use large speakers for subwoofers (15", 18", 21"). Can you design a small subwoofer? Yes you can, but it takes a lot more effort (box design, power and EQ) and it will still not push as much air as a larger speaker.

I have a scalable PA rig that is configurable depending on the venue. I have both 18" subs and Dual 12" clam shell subs. The 12's are snappier (faster attack, because the speaker cone moves faster), but they don't push as much air or reproduce the lower register as well. They also take quite a bit more power for the same output, easily 5-6db more.

Speaker Area - this will give you an idea of the relative amounts of air each speaker diameter can push
10" = 314.16
12" = 452.39
15" = 706.86
18" = 1017.88
21" = 1385.44
Last edited by cgrafx on 27 Mar 2020, 19:27, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Settings on QSC 10.2 with Stage 3

Postby cgrafx » 27 Mar 2020, 19:37

Rusty Mike wrote:
I have also adjusted the EQ on the K's to lower the treble. I cannot recall the exact value right now, but attenuating the top end helps to calm it down, particularly when it gets loud.

Even with the 8's, I've never had a problem with bottom end. Last big band rehearsal, our bass player couldn't make it. I carried the bass for the big band with no issues at all. Even got compliments on it!


You accomplished this by EQ'ing the box to reduce the higher frequencies (effectively boosting the bass response by compensating for the drop off). This works, but takes additional amplifier power to do so, reducing the headroom of the speaker.

If your not trying to compete with a lot of other instruments this will work fine (as it clearly did for you).
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Re: Settings on QSC 10.2 with Stage 3

Postby LeftyBass68 » 27 Mar 2020, 20:35

Resigned to using a 'studio powered thru' type Yorkville YSS1 sub with the Meyer UPM-1P's.Don't need anything bigger to play little places.90 seat pubs.
Bigger venues already have Meyer or 'something' there.

In medium size spaces not requiring big subs for FOH,I prefer the 10" Yorkville LS200P,50 pounds of excellent engineering still in production after 20 years! (model # change only ?)....
UPM-1P's on the sub sticks; total 75 pounds a side.123 DB max,which is fine.150 pounds to cover 200 people is a good ratio for an older person to schlepp IMO.Half the weight of a 55P.
Paraline array cabs with 4X6"+2/1.4" sound really good for speech/vox/keys too,and this dual 12 powered sub is tidy and deep,128DB available.Heavier than the 55P and will throw a lot farther.
RCF makes nice stuff,Yorkville and many others use those drivers! Yorkville is OK,not the best sounding IMO,totally reliable is their mantra and that is mostly true!
Meyer is great sounding gear,this Nord Stage 3 is revealed in stereo,pianos are the best I've heard,Yamaha right there too!

Will have a look at the 8" QSC like RustyMike uses,I know from experience how good the Meyer UPJ 8" 'juniors' sound!
The smallest UPM's with 2-5" need a sub though,even with a cone area more akin to an 8". 100 degree pattern throw is nice and tight!
IEM's get me some of the way there, great for vox.Never really nail instruments in real time though IME.If I played to a click or electronic maybe....big maybe.
Nice to know the QSC has 2 1/4" inputs.Replaced the NX55P's as key monitors. Will try the QSC,happy with the Meyers for now.

Sum keys outputs,all brands.Don't bother with a mono signal.Mixed down/combined 'prints bigger' in mono.
Monitor(s) and FOH are getting what they need then, even if I only have one source point to monitor/listen.
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