Nord User Forum

[Dobby]

Have you checked which sections/zone have the PitchBend on?

Thanks. Yes, I set all the pitchbend assignments for the zones myself, so I know what ones are supposed to be on and off. For both panels, and all engines. I had this manual aced before I got the board, so I could be on top of getting up and running. I'm already setting up some fairly extensive configurations. I am aware of which engines I'm assigning pitchbend to, on which panels, and where I'm not. This is an occasional hiccup where it ignores that, and pitchbend is just global occasionally, on an existing program.

Thanks for responding.

It certainly isn't a bad keyboard.

[baekgaard]

@Dobby,

First, I don't think you should count on having anything in the NS3 changed, and there are no 3rd-party options to re-program (parts of) it and no open-source tools to tweak its behaviour...

Now, having said that, your quest to make it abide to the particulars of your SY-77 (which was released 31 years ago and isn't completely aligned with more modern MIDI implementations since GM) is maybe not impossible, but I doubt you can make it work without some compromise on your requirements for this being a one-touch no-additional-devices solution.

The order by which the NS3 sends program change messages is not specified, so that's why you probably get it to work sometimes and at other times not with the otherwise clever hack of using both A and B externs sections.

Many of the other options you probably have already are mentioned/hinted at above:

You may be able to set up two programs whose sole purpose is to send the first MIDI program change (the equivalent of the bank select). Then you need to select that and the following program immediately after. You could combine this with using the song mode of the NS3, so that you could set up each song with the first song part being the "bank select"; then when you go to that song, it will send out the "bank select" (since the first song part is automatically loaded when you change there) and then you press either of buttons 2 to 5 to select the relevant program change/setup. If you need multiple sounds from both presets, you can still have two buttons to do this (say, song part 1 and 5) if you only need 3 program changes in total in that particular "song".

You could also use tablet (or even a phone) with a MIDI connection to both devices, to send out whatever program messages are required. I think there are at least some others here that does this; it gives you a control panel on your rig where you just press one button and then all settings are loaded on your connected devices. Note that as the NS3 does not allow full transparent MIDI thru, there may be some limitations on how to set this up if your SY77 isn't offering a transparent MIDI thru either.

One option that hasn't been mention, but which I'll bring up since you mention open source and I thus assume you're OK to do some programming work yourself: You could rig up a small Arduino board with a MIDI in and out, which simple transmits everything it receives BUT in addition replaces MIDI Bank Select messages with the particular program change your SY77 needs. This should be a trivial task to do and you may be able to set this up as a simple "smart MIDI" cable with a small box in the middle that does this; this will not really add to your rig setup time -- at least not if you could let the Arduino live of the power from the MIDI wire -- I've seen boxes doing this, so it MAY be possible; alternatively, put in a battery in the box.

An alternative solution may be to re-arrange your SY77 banks so that the ones you use are all in the same bank -- unless you're doing REALLY LONG gigs and need more than 64 different sounds from your SY77?

It sounds like you're having joy otherwise with your NS3, so maybe it's worth finding a work-around for your challenges. I guess that if you pick another keyboard that has more MIDI capabilities in this respect (not sure which ones can do what you want), then you may sacrifice on the sonic options and the simplicity the NS3 has otherwise...

[RichardG]

Hi,

I've found this document : http://www.deepsonic.ch/deep/docs_manua ... 7_midi.pdf
That's some weird program/voice-changing...
But maybe Baekgaard's solution using song-mode on NS3 might be feasible to use the Extern section for selecting voices on the SY77.

Completely out of the box thinking : Is it an idea to sample the voices from the SY77 and use them in the synth section of the NS3 ?

[maxpiano]

This is an occasional hiccup where it ignores that, and pitchbend is just global occasionally, on an existing program.

Thanks for responding.

It certainly isn't a bad keyboard.

Yw! If this is the case then it is quite strange, it would be worth investigating when it happens and why (could ne connected to seamless transition?)

[Mr_-G-]

I think that the practical solution in dealing with such an obtuse program numbering method is to have a program like PureData or similar between the Nord and the SY77 so you can program a look up table in which is specified every patch location in your NS and a matched location in the SY77.
Maybe MIDIOx can do something like that. It has been years since I used it last.
If you are handy with the Arduino boards maybe you can get a conversion box programmed for that and avoid having to carry a laptop.
I also seem to remember some programmable MIDI box to do this kind of thing.

[maxpiano]

I also seem to remember some programmable MIDI box to do this kind of thing.

This http://www.midisolutions.com/prodevp.htm ?

[RichardG]

Or you could use an app like 'bandhelper' and send anything to anywhere MIDI-wise.
For $1 per month you're set to go.
I'm not affiliated or anything but it's a great tool in which you can assign multiple MIDI-messages to a song and build a setlist of songs knowing that the right commands are always sent.
I think you can even make it send different MIDI-sommands at the touch of a button.

You can try it for free, so maybe worth a shot.

[Dobby]

Hey, thanks for all the supportive suggestions. I am going to research the suggestions about additional devices. If there's one out there that is suitable, something simple (meaning not intrusive or hard to use live, non stop show, no fiddling ... zero fiddling, zero menus, etc.)

Here's what I've done so far, very similar to baekgaard's suggestion. (And thank you baekgaard for your response.)

The programs definitely eventually lose the 'one after the other behavior' of the clever Panel A, Panel B hack that was suggested when you start filling them with data. However, I kept around, luckily, two fluke programs, with nothing but the Panel A/B PC hack instructions in them. I can't even seem to recreate a simple program to do this very easily, but, I tried enough stuff that when I found one that sometimes switched to Preset 2 ... I kept it, and didn't EVER edit it after that, because that then breaks it.

So, I have a fluke program that (inconsistently) will switch to Preset 2. And I now have another fluke program that sometimes switches back to Preset 1 (it was a copy of the other, one that actually worked, occasionally.)

The way I overcame the 'occasionally' and 'sometimes' behavior, was to set up a preset 2 'song' in the song section like baekgaard suggested. I place it off alone, so I can roll back and forth past it a bunch to get it to trigger. But to make this ... easy? ... I've placed it a little farther away from any actual ordered songs in an empty area of the list, so it's ... alone. Then, I can spin the knob ... and twist back and forth aver it a few times. It almost always switches then ... within five seconds.

I know. Not optimal. But, it does do it. Then, songs absolutely requiring this bank, can be grouped close to that spot in the song list, to the right of that point, so to speak. I know, that is suddenly a big ordering limitation ... but, at least it can be done.

Then, I just recreated a similar area with the preset 1 program, and group certain songs around it's location in the song list.

I am going to keep experimenting at getting a stable program version of the A/B panel hack. My switch to preset 2 program, is more consistent than the switch to preset 1 copy of it. And it's very hard to even reproduce any program of the A/B hack that works ... but I fluked out and got two, and will now never delete them. They are already saved to computer and tucked away. But I'll keep trying to recreate an even more stable version, if I can.

So, that's the progress so far. I actually have several 'songs' in the preset switch area, all pointed to the preset 2 switching hack program for, say going to preset two. Then I am rolling over several instructions at a time when I roll over that spot in the list with the dial. Sometimes, hitting a program button here or there while rolling across the list with the dial also makes it switch faster sometimes. I've got a few 'song parts' that are pointing to the preset switch hack too. The point seems to be, trigger it a thirty times, and eventually it switches. I simulate that with the knob twists. Maybe a glissando over the song parts buttons.

My aim, is to figure out one clean Panel A/B hack to use, if I can ever get one. Because sometimes, it will switch the first time you scroll past it. And when it does, isn't that a treat! Then, I would just insert that in spots where I wanted to change banks in the song order.

So, like I said. Progress. And I will make even more progress. There isn't anything that can't be fixed with a little duct tape.

Thanks again everyone.

I keep feeling confident that I will hit upon the perfect combination one day, and be able to just place one 'song' in the list, over and over again where needed, that I can step past in the song list to switch it very seamlessly. But for now, I still have to roll back and forth over that spot in the list to get it to actually pick it up and switch the bank. But, it does do it.

I'm half way there. I'm determine to figure out something even smoother. And I will look into some of the suggested devices. For me, the key is ... I can't menu dive, I can't reach hard to pick out button on a hard to read screen, and ... I'm often emulating recordings that were multi tracked, and fronting a show, the lead singer. The whole point was one big large "next" button, a few inches from my fingers, on the same board. And all I even really need is PC changes, and volume control. Maybe, like ... one CC message.

Thanks for all the quick support here peeps. I'll get it figured. I'm getting closer. I'll bet this rig stays here with me. I'm 80% there already.

I'm interested in these midi re-coder boxes. But, I know nothing about them. Thanks for the heads up on that too. I'll check into it.

[analogika]

Or you could use an app like 'bandhelper' and send anything to anywhere MIDI-wise.
For $1 per month you're set to go.
I'm not affiliated or anything but it's a great tool in which you can assign multiple MIDI-messages to a song and build a setlist of songs knowing that the right commands are always sent.
I think you can even make it send different MIDI-sommands at the touch of a button.

You can try it for free, so maybe worth a shot.

There's also the "pay once" version of Bandhelper, called Set List Maker. I've been using it on iPad for six or so years.

[Dobby]

Ok, so much for typing before sitting down in the studio this morning. baekgaard's suggestion ... is the solution.

Amazing combination of the original hack logic, except instead of trying to simulate the two program change messages in a row within one program, you simply use one whole program to send a single program change of either 124 (preset 1) or 117 (preset 2) ... or for that matter, my two other internal banks of user customized presets.

Now, when I insert that as a song, in a linear sequence, and step past it, the first song gives just the first pc message, and your next song, just a normal song, gives it's single pc change message (0-63) and it's selection within the bank is performed, and it is consistently perceived "out" of Nord as two immediate pc messages in a row. The bank change succeeds, every single time. I can step through this now. That, translates into ... problem 100% solved.

Obviously, following the logic, I might need to insert my patch to change back to the other preset immediately preceding any single change to the other banks. That way, it switches back to the previews bank when going backwards through the list. I may need to fiddle with this a bit for passing over and then backwards through a linear sequence of song changes, (back and forth both directions) ... but for now, baekgaard's suggestion has improved the stability, well, 100% in one direction. Seriously, this .. is a solution, this ... works linearly now in step fashion, no knob twisting. I might need to insert this ordering logic to ensure the back and forth, both directions dependability:

... some preset 1 song
... preset 1 change song
... some song with a pc change to eat up the expected 'second' 'value change' number when going in either direction.
... preset 2 change song
... some preset 2 song

I'll report back when I test this more. But for now, by gosh ... ... baekgaard saves the day. This, is ... stable now. Amazing. Don't use two panels in the same program. Just use one whole program to be the first pc bank command on it's own, based on the original logic from the clever two panel hack logic.

I'll report back ... very excited to get back to it ... but I wanted to report, I think baekgaard has solved this. Like, maybe completely. Nice work baekgaard. And maxpiano too, who came up with the original logic of the two panel trick, nice. Going forward, linearly ... this bank change issue is solved now. I'll report back on forward and backward observations after more observation.

Very excited now. I'll be keeping this excellent new tool now. Muwahahahaha!

And golly, the timbres on this instrument. Delicious. I got it to replace all my tines and piano's, and the B3, gosh, wow. Eventually, I hope to leave the sy77 at home. But that will take some time, and I needed the transition support for now. Sometimes the synth keybed will be a desired addition too. But wow, this stage 3 ... just ... wow. And now, it controls what I needed it to of the sy77 till I sort out some synth stuff. I may find I'm wanting the polyphony too sometimes, I play a lot of stuff past some really big pads. So, hooking it up to at least program change the sy77, was critical to me.

And, we solved it.

Happy customer now! Gosh, absolutely I am ... this, is a killer machine.