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OS1.52 and DualKB problems

Postby Hyttel » 27 Oct 2018, 21:54

There seems to be some problems with DualKB in OS1.52 mentioned in other threads, so I think it deserves its own thread.

The problem I am experiencing is hanging/sustained notes when using an external keyboard to control the NS3. My setup consists of a Roland FantomX and the NS3. Basically I want to control mainly organ sounds via the external keyboard and I have used this setup without problems on OS1.36.
Now in OS 1.52, when I play, random notes start sustaining and I have to use the "panic" button to release them. There is no consistency as to which notes, how many notes, or how long it takes before the problem occurs. The problem seems to be that the NS3 in these case misses the NoteOff signal from the FantomX.

I've tried to make a video of the problem (sorry about the bad sound. I'm recording through headphones). Here you can see that I've set up DualKB for the Organ engine, but the result is the same with piano, synth, and panel. When I start playing, everything is acting normally, but at the end of the video a single note sustains, and I have to release it with the "panic" button.

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OS1.52 and DualKB problems


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Re: OS1.52 and DualKB problems

Postby baekgaard » 28 Oct 2018, 18:04

Thanks for making the video also, @Hyttel!

It looks like you, as well as @ndaustin and @Satomi all have a similar problem: When using an external keyboard connected to the NS3 in Dual KB mode, you get hanging notes.

I have tried to replicate it here, but I've been unsuccessful so far. As we can better hope for a fix if we can nail it down to a reproducible scenario, I've been trying to figure out what the differences and commonalities are.

As far as I can see, @ndaustin uses an Arturia Keylab 88 as the external keyboard. You are using a Roland Fantom X and @Satomi uses a Novation Impulse 49.

Which NS3 model are you all using? I have a HA88 version here.

As said, I've tried to reproduce it here, but so far without success. I have tested using an NP4 as controller and have also dug out an old JV80 from the closet, to see if the error would be triggered there. None of them did. I've tried both Panel mode and Organ mode etc, but also without any problems.

@Hyttel, could you share your specific program that you use? And maybe -- if you have time -- also dial through all menus while recording a short video, so that I can see what settings you have that could potentially be different to mine?

Thanks!

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Re: OS1.52 and DualKB problems

Postby baekgaard » 28 Oct 2018, 18:47

Also, @Hyttel, one simple test you could maybe do to help locate the issue: If you set up e.g. an Organ like you have on Panel B, then try to enable the Extern section on Panel A and make it transmit on the same channel as your Dual KB. Then connect a MIDI cable from NS3 MIDI Out to MIDI In -- this way, you can play Panel A and trigger Panel B organ in Dual KB mode -- which of course only makes sense for testing! But if you could trigger the bug in this scenario, it must be related to the settings you have and not the use of a (non-Nord) external keyboard.

Another idea is that if you could record the MIDI Out from your Roland and play it back to the Nord, it would likely triangulate the issue immediately, so a fix could be found fast.

Just to isolate the issue...
Last edited by baekgaard on 28 Oct 2018, 19:29, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: OS1.52 and DualKB problems

Postby Satomy » 28 Oct 2018, 20:06

Thank you for your interest in trying to solve the problem of sustained notes , problem encountered with OS 1.50 and OS 1.52.
I also made 2 videos to demonstrate the problem of the notes sustained.
In the video with nord stage 3 76 hp connected in midi with Roland juno G, as you can see from the video, the problem occurs randomly, while in the video with nord stage 3 76 hp connected in midi with novation impulse 49, the problem is always check and immediately.
It must be said that it is strange that in two different keyboards the problem is different, but it exists.
In addition, I have already used impulse 49 in dual KB with Nord stage 2ex 76 hp and I have never had problems, it has always worked very well, including swell pedal, expression pedal, etc ... and I have never had problems with notes sustained. Since I bought the Nord Stage 3 76 hp I had many problems: swell pedal in dual KB that never worked until version 1.50, the speed (rate) of the Phaser 1 does not reach that of the NS2EX other nord (nord piano 2/3/4, nord electro 3/4/5 (problem reported many times in the North and I've never had an answer!), Now that they have finally solved the bug of the swell pedal has arisen a bigger problem, than the sustained notes.
Concluding: I do not think it's a midi master problem, Up to OS 1.46 has always worked well in dual KB, except the swell pedal, although 1.46 has other unresolved issues, like the polyphony in the Synth section.
sorry for my english language, google translator

video con impulse 49.mp4
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video con juno G.mp4
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Re: OS1.52 and DualKB problems

Postby baekgaard » 28 Oct 2018, 21:25

Thanks, Satomy.

The issue is likely with the NS3 and not with the individual controllers. However, there are likely some differences (maybe in the timing or the way they send MIDI) that can trigger the issue in different ways, or not trigger it at all.

If your Novation Impulse 49 triggers the bug immediately (like on the video), would it be possible for you to record a short MIDI sequence from the Novation directly? And then try to play that to the NS3 and see if it still triggers the bug. If it does, I would like to test the MDI file here on mine as well, to see what happens.

Alternatively, you could use a MIDI Monitor (PC/Mac/Linux) to see what MIDI is sent by the Novation, and maybe put a screenshot here, just so that I can get an idea of what could possibly trigger the bug.
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Re: OS1.52 and DualKB problems

Postby Hyttel » 28 Oct 2018, 23:44

baekgaard wrote:Also, @Hyttel, one simple test you could maybe do to help locate the issue: If you set up e.g. an Organ like you have on Panel B, then try to enable the Extern section on Panel A and make it transmit on the same channel as your Dual KB. Then connect a MIDI cable from NS3 MIDI Out to MIDI In -- this way, you can play Panel A and trigger Panel B organ in Dual KB mode -- which of course only makes sense for testing! But if you could trigger the bug in this scenario, it must be related to the settings you have and not the use of a (non-Nord) external keyboard.

Another idea is that if you could record the MIDI Out from your Roland and play it back to the Nord, it would likely triangulate the issue immediately, so a fix could be found fast.

Just to isolate the issue...


I tried what you suggested, both recording a midi file from the FantomX and playing via extern section on panel A on the NS3. In these scenarios I was not able to reproduce the hanging notes.

However, I might have made a minor breakthrough. I set up the Fantom X to transmit over channel 16 and put "soft through" on the extern section (channel 16) and set up Panel B to receive on channel 16 in the Midi-menu (the sustained note problem is consistent over Global, Panel A, Panel B, and DualKB). In this way I was able to see what the NS3 passed on from the Fantom X to Midi monitor (for some reason, soft through does not seem to work for me on DualKB). Now I played until a note sustained and looked at the data in Midi monitor. The note off values for the sustained notes were always "1". Whenever I hit the key again, thereby getting another note off value, it stopped sustaining.
Now I am actually able to reproduce the sustained notes (I'll see if I can make a video of it tomorrow).

There are still a couple of issues though. The bug does not appear when I play the NS3 keys through the extern loop, you suggested, even though the midi note off value is "1". Also when I monitor the Fantom X directly through Midi monitor, the note off values are sometimes "0", actually I did not manage to produce a "1". The value "0", however, is impossible for me to get on the NS3 keybed.

Now my theory is that the NS3 in some way misinterprets the note off data from the FantomX when this value is "0". Does this sound completely impossible?

Hope this makes sense.

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Re: OS1.52 and DualKB problems

Postby anotherscott » 28 Oct 2018, 23:56

Note Off Values of 0 or 1 or anything (can be up to 127) should all silence a note. The different numbers are for release velocity, if you're using something that responds to that. Otherwise, the number makes no difference.

This is different from Note ON values, because there is a special case where Note On of zero is actually interpreted as Note Off. So that's very different from a Note On of one.
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Re: OS1.52 and DualKB problems

Postby baekgaard » 29 Oct 2018, 00:01

It is possible note off with velocity 0 is being incorrectly understood. The Nord generates and responds to note off velocity, and maybe other keyboards generate off velocities that the Nord doesn't normally. Could explain the pattern seen here.
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Re: OS1.52 and DualKB problems

Postby anotherscott » 29 Oct 2018, 00:34

Yes, some keyboards send Note Off at release, and some send Note On of Zero, and that difference could have something to do with why some keyboards are working and some are not.
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Re: OS1.52 and DualKB problems

Postby Gospelkeys » 29 Oct 2018, 04:05

Hi All - confirming what was discussed previously

I am able to duplicate this problem reliably.

I have a Roland Ax-Edge keytar which sends data to the midi in of my NS3 88.

Monitoring with midi ox, If the note off velocity is 0 - the note hangs. I can duplicate this by pressing a note, holding it, and letting if off very slowly.

So I am guessing the bug is that a note off with velocity of 0 is ignored. Not saying there aren't other issues but that is the only way I can I can make it happen.

This is a big issue so I hope Nord fixes it quickly.......
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